Warm Front Fitted Loft Insulation - seems shallow, how can I check?

a1robo

I have been insulating my home and making it energy-efficient (cavity wall, thermostatic valves, enlarged and insulated trap door, etc, etc) for the last 12 years of working life before I became disabled and then unemployed (on DLA & Incap Benefit now).

So my boiler etc ISN'T the problem. It's the loft insulation - the only improvement I never completed.

After a year of waiting, and having all my loft contents in bedrooms, lounge, etc., the Warm Front sub-contractors finally fitted 200 mm (8") insulation on top my existing 100 mm (4"), according to the paperwork.

I had all the loft joists built up to 10" high (from 4") before they came (at considerable expense) as I wanted to reboard it out afterwards to "play room" floor standard. The sub-contractors were told this as they arrived. I got that feeling of "a nod and wink" body language between workmen which set me thinking...

The total area is 44 sq metres and they brought in 4/5 rolls x (maybe) 4 foot-ish high/long. They were VERY keen to take away all the roll's plastic packaging with depth/length etc on it, and omitted (on their completion paperwork) to state how many rolls they used.

When I examined the finished job, the insulation is at or even lower than the 10" joists. But not cut to fit tightly to the joist sides - so not "held down" by the tightness between them.

I queried this with the workmen who were in a hurry to leave. I have queried this now with Eaga enquiries. Their response was to quote exactly what the workmen told me - not very useful. Nor did they tell me how to be sure of the depth fitted.

Before I go up the Complaint Route, is there anyone out there - with perhaps some experience/qualifications in insulation - with a trusted method of being sure what depth of insulation is fitted? Preferably before the 44 square metres of expensive floor-grade boarding is going to be fitted?

Thanks for any help! David

jodie_d_2

Hello,

Although I am not a loft fitter, my fella is and has done it for 5+ years. His advice to check the overall thickness is to measure from your plasterboard to the top of the new insulation, this would give you an acurate idea of how deep your insulation is.

With regards to the amount of bags they used, the bags my fella uses are Knauf and these are 4 foot tall, he said the bags vary on length depending on thickness of material, if they have used 200mm there is about 5.9m per bag my fella says, so if your loft is 44Sq meters they should've used up to 8 bags. He said it sounds like they may have used the rolls which are 170mm thick, these rolls hold almost 8meters a roll, so 4/5 rolls would do it, although it wouldn't be the thickness they stated.

My fella has also asked if you have a electric shower wired through your loft, to make sure they haven't covered the electric cable up (usually a 22mm grey cable), as this is very dangerous and is a fire hazard, same with any spot lights.

But if you are unhappy persue your complaint because these companies are paid by the government to do the job properly, hope this helps.

Jodie

justjohn

jodie_d wrote: »

My fella has also asked if you have a electric shower wired through your loft, to make sure they haven't covered the electric cable up (usually a 22mm grey cable), as this is very dangerous and is a fire hazard, same with any spot lights.

I new about the spots

Why not cover the 22mm cable???? (if it gets that hot then its a fault) Thaught it actualy helped to cover.

If they are going down a stud wall then they will be covered with insulation?

Also i did read somewere that certain caculations for electrical cabling take into consideration what they are surrounded by/embedded in?

Sorry for hijacking post always eagre to learn.

Victoriajayne

I thought they offered to install loft insulation at 270mm depth, or top up to that depth if there is already some fitted ?
In which case, they may well have installed 170mm insulation over your existing 100mm.

Pop your head up in the loft and measure the total depth.

a1robo

jodie_d wrote: »

Hello,

Although I am not a loft fitter, my fella is and has done it for 5+ years. His advice to check the overall thickness is to measure from your plasterboard to the top of the new insulation, this would give you an acurate idea of how deep your insulation is.

With regards to the amount of bags they used, the bags my fella uses are Knauf and these are 4 foot tall, he said the bags vary on length depending on thickness of material, if they have used 200mm there is about 5.9m per bag my fella says, so if your loft is 44Sq meters they should've used up to 8 bags. He said it sounds like they may have used the rolls which are 170mm thick, these rolls hold almost 8meters a roll, so 4/5 rolls would do it, although it wouldn't be the thickness they stated.

My fella has also asked if you have a electric shower wired through your loft, to make sure they haven't covered the electric cable up (usually a 22mm grey cable), as this is very dangerous and is a fire hazard, same with any spot lights.

But if you are unhappy persue your complaint because these companies are paid by the government to do the job properly, hope this helps.

Jodie

Thanks Jodie. That's really appreciated. I was an Engineer (Mech - now not), so appreciate the skills other people have.

I've already done the measurements (as you suggest - thanks) and it is 9"-10" (nominal) and varies (as I knew it would - as the insulation is sometimes "tight" inbetween the joists, but not in other places.)

I should have said it was "KNAUF" in the original post - I know its label from the Builder's Merchants. I passed the rolls thro' my hallway so they wouldn't hit my possessions! There certainly was not 8 rolls. They were (approx) 600mm (2'-ish) diameter as I "bear-hugged" them thro' the narrow space. Your bloke reckons 4/5 @ 170 mm thick? I counted them also - 4/5 in total, as in my original post. Hmmm....

Thanks for the shower cable reminder. I haven't an electric shower(nor spots). The only cables up there are 1/1.5 mm that I used to expand the lighting to the loft area and a 2.5mm that is conduited vertically to the perling - thro' a 5 Amp FCU spur - to a double socket (the inside-aerial signal booster). In fairness to the workmen, they did avoid insulating over the junction boxes (only lighting - 5 Amp max load anyway.) But a good point to remember.

Had I not had the 10" high joist "guide", I may never have immediately noticed the low depth, as all the "evidence" (the roll's packaging) disappeared, by insistence of the workmen... Hmmm...

If I'd never made any previous thermal improvements myself, with my own monies, I might not feel the same way as I do now.

A lesson for us all? Thanks again,

Regards to you and yours for the info, David.

a1robo

Victoriajayne wrote: »

I thought they offered to install loft insulation at 270mm depth, or top up to that depth if there is already some fitted ?
In which case, they may well have installed 170mm insulation over your existing 100mm.

Pop your head up in the loft and measure the total depth.

Hello V - and thanks for your time for the reply.

But this is where it becomes "tricky". I am no expert on insulation - nor will I pretend to be. But I can measure, very accurately...

The original "Warm Front" assessor (way back) stated - to meet requirements - they would install 200 mm (8"). The next assessor confirmed that same depth to be installed when he visited last December (2009) as the improvement was 'imminent' (well, it nearly was...).

On the "work completion form" (at my side) it states "Installed thickness of ...200 MM". The "Total thickness" box says "270 MM". I KNOW I put 4" Rock Wool insulation in in 1998 - I unwrapped and fitted it. Maybe it has "settled"? So is it 3" now?

270 mm is the new Govt contractual Standard, as you say. Which would be 300 (12") - 200 on top of the 4" - or 270 (11"-ish) if on top of 3" insulation. Which means the insulation would sit 1 inch to 2 inches-ish above the 10" joists.

It would be showing "proud" of them. I measured it (as suggested) and it varies between 9" and 10" from the plasterboard ceiling (meaning 225-250 mm total). Hmmm...

Some History...: I insulated my first-owned house in 1982-ish. I had a Govt grant - as was normal then and available to all - and put in 4" (100 mm) with that Govt grant. In 1982, you fitted 4" insulation and submitted receipts for the grant. The "verifier" came and checked it. It was 4" (in my case). I was paid. It was a system that could have been open to abuse. But there were checks.

Even then (1980's), The Govt realised energy-conservation was/would be an issue. Now we ALL know it is - with CO2 targets to meet by 2015 - and further. Insulation has improved if we recall the "mica-fill" or those expanded-polystyrene balls that stuck to you rather than lie down inbetween joists....

My understanding is still this. 270 mm insulation is more than twice as efficient than 135 mm, as I understand it. Someone will post if I am completely wrong, I'm sure.

Now someone else is fitting my insulation in my last years, for which I am grateful. And I am also helping the Govt meet their targets - as well as saving myself energy costs - I realise. By contractual obligation, there should be 270 mm of insulation in my loft. But there does not seem to be.

I made an enquiry - not a complaint - to the administrators of the scheme for "...guidance...", to be assured that there was no "abuse". In the 1980's, there were verifiers, and checks, from the Govt. In 2010 the administrators say that all is fine with my loft after talking to the sub-contractors - and giving me exactly the same information that I received from the workmen. And I'm looking at a rule with a different measurement...

Where I get to in this view (finally) is that this Govt initiative is almost-exactly the same initiative as was in the 1980's (specifically for loft insulation, not for the boilers etc).

But has not the same checks. I don't know why. I have a feeling that this will cost me more (in time and stress) than it is worth.

In waiting for a "verifier" to check - whilst I jump over all the tea chests, etc that have been waiting to go back, for over a year.

Anyone been up this road, before me?

Thanks V. Regards, David