Joint Tenancy’s – How to end?

Jowo_2

Post your query on the Landlordzone rental forum. there's at least one member there who is a housing solicitor.

Planner

THI wrote: »

There is some confusion here!

A quick response to you:

Your reply to my Question is obviousily yes it is possible.

Your reply to my reason 1: The decision is obviously to stay or go at the end of the fixed term.

Your reply to my reason 2: Not sure why its assumed they will leave at the end of the fixed term when the law provides for security of tenure AFTER the end of the fixed term?; You seem to have missed what we are talking about in the rest of your response here and provided a 'cut and paste' generic response.

Your reply to my reason 3: Is completley wrong. A landlord has no power whatsoever without a court order to end a tenancy or stop a periodic tenancy arising, its arising is automatic dependant on the actions of the tenant - did you now know this?

Theres Definatley some confusion here!

Planner

Jowo wrote: »

Post your query on the Landlordzone rental forum. there's at least one member there who is a housing solicitor.

Im not querying, Im teaching.

DVardysShadow

Planner wrote: »

Im not querying, Im teaching.

You don't have to be right to teach.You just teach error.

Planner

DVardysShadow wrote: »

I don't think an assured tenancy is an assured shorthold tenancy.

You don't have to be right to teach.You just teach error. - And everything you say is spot on?!!!!

vaporate

avoid joint contracts like the plague.

DVardysShadow

Planner wrote: »

My conclusions are based on the wording of the housing act.

One last stab.

X. Section 5 (5) of the Housing Act 1988 says that any notice served in the fixed term will be invalid if a periodic tenancy arises.

Y. Section 5 (2) and (3) says that immediatley on coming to an end of the fixed term, the tenancy becomes a periodic tenancy, if the tenant still present.

Z. Section 1 (1b) of the Housing Act 1988 says a tenant is a single tenant occupying the house or at least one of the joint tenants occupying the house.

So the effect of B still in occupation is as per Y, a periodic tenancy. The effect of the periodic tenancy is X, any notice served during the fixed term is invalid. Conclusion A&B are still tenants under a periodic tenancy. Simples.

X] No. It says

(5) If, on or before the date on which a tenancy is entered into or is deemed to have been granted as mentioned in subsection (3)(b) above, the person who is to be the tenant under that tenancy—
(a) enters into an obligation to do any act which (apart from this subsection) will cause the tenancy to come to an end at a time when it is an assured tenancy, or
(b) executes, signs or gives any surrender, notice to quit or other document which (apart from this subsection) has the effect of bringing the tenancy to an end at a time when it is an assured tenancy,
the obligation referred to in paragraph (a) above shall not be enforceable or, as the case may be, the surrender, notice to quit or other document referred to in paragraph (b) above shall be of no effect.

ie it is the notice taking effect during the assured period which renders it invalid, not notice being given in this period

Z] You are making too much of this. It is not greatly relevant to the joint and several relationship

(1) A tenancy under which a dwelling-house is let as a separate dwelling is for the purposes of this Act an assured tenancy if and so long as—
(a) the tenant or, as the case may be, each of the joint tenants is an individual; and
(b) the tenant or, as the case may be, at least one of the joint tenants occupies the dwelling-house as his only or principal home; and
(c) the tenancy is not one which, by virtue of subsection (2) or subsection (6) below, cannot be an assured tenancy.

Read correctly and in context it merely provides the qualifying criteria the Tenant must meet for the tenancy to be assured.

DVardysShadow

Planner wrote: »

DVardysShadow wrote: »

I don't think an assured tenancy is an assured shorthold tenancy.

You don't have to be right to teach.You just teach error. - And everything you say is spot on?!!!!

Well, if you are picking a hole in what I said, let the Act speak for itself:

1. Chapter I
   Assured Tenancies
2. Chapter II
   Assured Shorthold Tenancies

Planner

DVardysShadow wrote: »

X] No. It says

ie it is the notice taking effect during the assured period which renders it invalid, not notice being given in this period

Dangers of Cherry Picking!

(5)If, on or before the date on which a tenancy is entered into or is deemed to have been granted as mentioned in subsection (3)(b) above (The Periodic Tenancy), the person who is to be the tenant under that tenancy—
(a) enters into an obligation to do any act which (apart from this subsection) will cause the tenancy to come to an end at a time when it is an assured tenancy, or
(b) executes, signs or gives any surrender, notice to quit or other document which (apart from this subsection) has the effect of bringing the tenancy to an end at a time when it is an assured tenancy,
the obligation referred to in paragraph (a) above shall not be enforceable or, as the case may be, the surrender, notice to quit or other document referred to in paragraph (b) above shall be of no effect.

SO the key here is If, on or before the date, and in particular ON. On the Date theperiodic tenancy is entered into. What is the date the Periodic Tenancy is entered into? - The periodic tenancy referred to in subsection (2) above is one—
(a) taking effect in possession immediately on the coming to an end of the fixed term tenancy;

So if notice is served ON the date the periodic arises i.e. the end of the fixed term OR before the periodic arises i.e. the fixed term - notice is invalid.

The threshold between the Fixed term and the Periodic is seamless and immediate.

Simples.

DVardysShadow

Planner wrote: »

Dangers of Cherry Picking!

(5)If, on or before the date on which a tenancy is entered into or is deemed to have been granted as mentioned in subsection (3)(b) above (The Periodic Tenancy), the person who is to be the tenant under that tenancy—
(a) enters into an obligation to do any act which (apart from this subsection) will cause the tenancy to come to an end at a time when it is an assured tenancy, or
(b) executes, signs or gives any surrender, notice to quit or other document which (apart from this subsection) has the effect of bringing the tenancy to an end at a time when it is an assured tenancy,
the obligation referred to in paragraph (a) above shall not be enforceable or, as the case may be, the surrender, notice to quit or other document referred to in paragraph (b) above shall be of no effect.

SO the key here is If, on or before the date, and in particular ON. On the Date theperiodic tenancy is entered into. What is the date the Periodic Tenancy is entered into? - The periodic tenancy referred to in subsection (2) above is one—
(a) taking effect in possession immediately on the coming to an end of the fixed term tenancy;

So if notice is served ON the date the periodic arises i.e. the end of the fixed term OR before the periodic arises i.e. the fixed term - notice is invalid.

The threshold between the Fixed term and the Periodic is seamless and immediate.

Simples.

This is barmy. YOU are cherry picking. You have quoted the very text which you are totally blind to. So I have enlarged it for you. I think the enlarged bit is the key to your misunderstanding

We are not talking about serving notice ON the date the fixed term ends, we are talking about serving notice FOR the date the fixed term ends. The date ON which you serve it can be before the end of the fixed term as long as it is not FOR a date in the fixed term.

I would agree that the transition from fixed to periodic is immediate - but to call it seamless is not helpful. The effect of notice correctly served in the fixed period is that the transition is from fixed to terminated - the periodic does not then arise.