Banks illegally requiring donor's signature to use Enduring Power of Attorney? Help!

cashferret

My mother drew up an Enduring Power of Attorney in 2007 with no restrictions (i.e. no requirement that she become mentally incapacitated or anything before it could be used). I am one of the three attorneys, and we were appointed to act jointly and severally.

My mother decided a few weeks ago that she didn't want to handle her finances any more and asked me to do it for her. Unfortunately, she since had a sudden illness and is now extremely frail; I expect her to recover but not for many months and in the meantime, I am approaching the various banks and institutions that she has dealings with to register the EPA with them and start acting in her stead.

To my surprise, Santander are absolutely insisting that my mother signs their registration form. Unlike the Halifax, for example, who don't require her signature, Santander's POA form has an authorisation section that reads, "For all Power of Attorney accounts the donor/account holder must sign below unless the Power of Attorney has been registered with the Court of Protection/Office of Public Guardianship."

I explained to them when I picked up the form that my mother was too physically ill to sign but they insisted. I'm meeting this attitude with other institutions, though not all.

What is the legal position? Is this theft on Santander's part? My mother signed a legally binding document empowering me to act in her stead, that came into effect the moment we signed it. By adding this extra hoop to jump through, Santander are preventing my mother from accessing her own money. It's not their money!

Short of calling the police, what can I do? Mum has a large bond that has just matured that will be earning zero interest until I move it, so she will be losing money.

She really is so very frail and exhausted that she won't even be able to concentrate long enough to read the document and know what she's signing. This just seems so cruel, jobsworth and unnecessary! Surely many people must be start to use EPAs under similarly difficult circumstances for very ill parents.

Can anyone advise?

MrBeans

Could this be simple ignorance on behalf of the person you spoke to at Santander?

Maybe a call to Santander's head office or department that deals with wills, estates, etc could clear it up?

Power of Attorney rules changed recently such that they must be registered when drawn up - it sounds as if Santander's form reflects only the new state of affairs.

poppy10_2

cashferret wrote: »

Surely many people must be start to use EPAs under similarly difficult circumstances for very ill parents.

EPAs have been replaced by LPAs (Lasting Power of Attorney) - as MrBeans points out, these need to be registered with the Office of the Public Guardian when they are made in order to be valid.

If you have an existing EPA made before October 2007, then it is still valid, you just need to register it with the OPA - it costs £120, and you don't need the donee's signature.
http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/arrangements/epa.htm

cashferret wrote: »

My mother signed a legally binding document empowering me to act in her stead, that came into effect the moment we signed it.

Nope, it comes into effect once you have registered it with the Office of the Public Guardian. Go and register it.

cashferret

MrBeans wrote: »

Could this be simple ignorance on behalf of the person you spoke to at Santander?

Maybe a call to Santander's head office or department that deals with wills, estates, etc could clear it up?

Power of Attorney rules changed recently such that they must be registered when drawn up - it sounds as if Santander's form reflects only the new state of affairs.

Thanks, MrBeans, that's very interesting - I don't know anything about LPA's but that would help explain why Santander have such a requirement actually on their form, which indicates it's not just a branch-level misunderstanding. I'll try phoning their higher-up office as you suggest.

I'm still curious to know whether requiring the donor's signature when trying to register an EPA (as opposed to an LPA) with a bank is actually illegal, rather than just unnecessary. Does anyone know?

Bob_the_Saver

MrBeans wrote: »

Could this be simple ignorance on behalf of the person you spoke to at Santander?

Maybe a call to Santander's head office or department that deals with wills, estates, etc could clear it up?

Power of Attorney rules changed recently such that they must be registered when drawn up - it sounds as if Santander's form reflects only the new state of affairs.

NEVER, not ignorance at Santander surely :rotfl:

opinions4u

cashferret wrote: »

I'm still curious to know whether requiring the donor's signature when trying to register an EPA (as opposed to an LPA) with a bank is actually illegal, rather than just unnecessary. Does anyone know?

As far as I am aware, there is no legal requirement for a bank to accept POA at all.

Whether the Disability Discrimination Act would indirectly force them to is another story.

cashferret

poppy10 wrote: »

EPAs have been replaced by LPAs (Lasting Power of Attorney) - as MrBeans points out, these need to be registered with the Office of the Public Guardian when they are made in order to be valid.

If you have an existing EPA made before October 2007, then it is still valid, you just need to register it with the OPA - it costs £120, and you don't need the donee's signature.
http://www.publicguardian.gov.uk/arrangements/epa.htm


Nope, it comes into effect once you have registered it with the Office of the Public Guardian. Go and register it.

Hi Poppy10 - I think this is where a lot of the confusion is coming in, the different treatment of EPAs and LPAs. With an EPA, you must not register it with the OPG unless and until the person you're attorney for becomes mentally incapable of dealing with their financial affairs (I'm having to register my dad's for that very reason and it does indeed cost £120 and as you say, will not be valid until they have registered it). My mum still has mental capacity, she's just too ill and tired to act, so I must not register her EPA and am entitled to use it immediately.

It's been very helpful to have this brought up - I think Santander's documents must have been drawn up with LPAs in mind, not EPAs, and that will help me in my discussion with their head office.

cashferret

opinions4u wrote: »

As far as I am aware, there is no legal requirement for a bank to accept POA at all.

Whether the Disability Discrimination Act would indirectly force them to is another story.

That's interesting - my mum relies on interest from cash bonds & ISAs to provide her with an income (she only has a tiny fraction of a State pension) and any lost income from them really matters. At the moment, she can't access the money because she is ill and because Santander refuse to recognise the EPA; if she were well, she could sign their document and we'd have access. Perhaps it is a DDA matter but it would be outrageous if I had to go to court over it.

It would seem odd if accepting EPAs were voluntary! That would seem to make them pointless. That wouldn't stop it being true, of course...

Any more legally-minded bods have a view?

Andystriker

Was the EPA drawn up by a Solicitor?

If so, go and see them and get them to sort it out for you.

RayWolfe

An unregistered EPA gives you absolute power over the affairs of your mother. It can ONLY be registered if she loses mental capacity. I am an attorney for my MIL. Not only do I look after her financial affairs but I recently sold her house ... all with MY signature and without registration of the EPA.
True, none of this involves A Certain Spanish Bank! And, as this forum shows every day and as my experience in the past shows, is best avoided.
My advice, should Santander prove unmoving, is to get mum to sign the document (see doesn't need to read or understand ... as long as you have), and move the money to a bank that exists for it's customers.

Baggysdad

Santander can set up whatever rules that they want for the management of their accounts.

Those that are not happy with the terms and conditions, which are provided by the bank to all account holders always have the opportunity to move their money to an institution which has terms and conditions that they are happy with.

If Santander say that they will only accept an EPA if it has been registered, then so be it.

I think I would spend my time registering the EPA rather than arguing the toss with Santander.

BTW, depending on the circumstances of the donor, an exemption or remission of the £120 fee can be applied for. Anyone on an income of (IIRC) £12,000pa is exempt from paying the fee.

B