WARNING!!! Must Read!!! Legal Danger

one-non-blonde

Does anyone think there's any chance of eg. Boots ever trying to go after individuals to recoup costs on grounds of fraud? :eek:

Pat__3

Sub wrote:

Divadee, I don't believe you are qualified to offer even an accurate definition of the offence of fraud, let alone meaningfully discuss how that might or might not apply to the online discussion of discount vouchers.

I don't intend to play internet lawyers with you, so I'll simply restate my initial sentiment that people should show a bit of backbone and not go all weak at the knees because someone waves a solicitors letter at them.

And what qualifys you.

Marigold123

one-non-blonde wrote:

Does anyone think there's any chance of eg. Boots ever trying to go after individuals to recoup costs on grounds of fraud? :eek:

I think for Boots, at least, to do that, they would have to be following the activities of individual customers more accurately. If they were able to do this, they would presumably have cancelled duplicate orders in the first place.

That's not to say that the situation won't change when they upgrade their online ordering system, (which, after the last week or so, I am sure they will do!)

Derek_Duval

Sub wrote:

so I'll simply restate my initial sentiment that people should show a bit of backbone and not go all weak at the knees because someone waves a solicitors letter at them.

How can Martin & the team be accused of having no backbone? I think they've been brave to fight the corporate world with the motto "companies try to screw us for profits, Money saving shows you how to screw them back", and to do so on radio tv & in the press.
It would be a big shame to push it too far, & lose everything. Myself and most members of the board are very grateful for what MSE does for us, & wish it to stay that way. Don't bite the hand that feeds you.

David_Brent

one-non-blonde wrote:

Does anyone think there's any chance of eg. Boots ever trying to go after individuals to recoup costs on grounds of fraud? :eek:

No, if you made orders using the online code, its their own fault in the first place for having a weak online ordering system that didn't pick up on it, they had the chance to cancel orders, but didn't and have taken money from accounts for the purchases... so theres no way it can be fraudulent. These companies releasing online codes need to plan and organise a well run online voucher system before releasing the codes in the first place.. and stop complaining when people exploit them, because they are to lazy to keep themselves upto date, if they can't put up with it don't bloody release the codes.

purplepatch

MSE_Martin wrote:

Acutally Sub. You're quite right. Not only did i not cow-tail to Sainsbury, but 4 national newspapers followed the story of what Sainsbury tried to do and the inefficiency of the system.

The point about Sainsbury is a simple one - it was reading the site and using tracking. This is not anonymous.

I take it this has all been resolved now and the website is not in any trouble.

Any chance of any links to these stories? I haven't been able to find much from google and would be very interested to know more (having used the naughty codes in question!! )

Marigold123

I did a search on Google on 'Sainsbury's code' the other day and an article came up mentioning MSE in connection with the issue. Very interesting. Don't remember where it was, though. I don't know whether it's one you've seen, but if not, I could probably find it again.

---

EDIT: Look what I DID find, though! This was in the Early Day Motions of the House of Commons, dated 20th January this year.

564 MONEY SAVING ADVICE TO THE GENERAL PUBLIC 20:1:05
Mr Gregory Campbell
Mr Nigel Dodds
Mr Jeffrey M. Donaldson
Bob Spink
* 4
That this House commends the activities of those persons and groups dedicated to assisting members of the public get value for money in purchases, insurance, overdrafts and mortgages; and recognises that money saving experts like Martin Lewis at http://www.moneysavingexpert.com/ provides, on a not-for-profit basis, an incentive for ordinary consumers to pressurise large providers and financial institutions to hold down prices to the general public.

I'm sending this to Martin directly, in case he hasn't seen it.

Marigold123

David_Brent wrote:

No, if you made orders using the online code, its their own fault in the first place for having a weak online ordering system that didn't pick up on it, they had the chance to cancel orders, but didn't and have taken money from accounts for the purchases... so theres no way it can be fraudulent. These companies releasing online codes need to plan and organise a well run online voucher system before releasing the codes in the first place.. and stop complaining when people exploit them, because they are to lazy to keep themselves upto date, if they can't put up with it don't bloody release the codes.

While I agree totally that companies whose online ordering is full of holes are certainly at fault, I'm not sure that that LEGALLY entitles us to exploit those weaknesses.

When registering with a website a user agrees to abide by the terms and conditions of that site, including conditions of individual offers. Just because their ordering software is not well written, it doesn't mean we have a RIGHT to take advantage of it. If someone leaves their car unlocked, it doesn't mean a thief is allowed to steal the car or the handbag inside.

I was wondering about the actual legality of registering more than once, (or even several times), with a site, for the purpose of using the same code more than once, when the conditions state that it may only be used once per customer. If you are entitled to use the code once only, wouldn't a second use by the same customer constitute a similar infringement to using a code you weren't entitled to at all?

I imagine it's a fairly woolly area, as if you've lost your registration details you might very easily re-register with the same site a second time and not be doing anything wrong.

And while it wouldn't be unreasonable of them to cancel an order if they felt the system was being abused, once they have taken the money and dispatched the goods, I don't think it would be worth their while spending the time and money pursuing those people who got away with it. The resources would be better spent on tightening up their systems!

And paradoxically, they have gained a lot of new online customers, many of whom will probably shop with them again under ordinary circumstances! When you think about what big companies like these normally spend on advertising and expanding their customer base, I think they may have gained more than they've lost.

/rant

(BTW Martin, an elegant response, sir! *takes hat off*)

Marigold123

purplepatch wrote:

Any chance of any links to these stories? I haven't been able to find much from google and would be very interested to know more (having used the naughty codes in question!! )

This is the one that I read: http://www.theregister.co.uk/2004/11/02/code_sainsburys/

Some interesting stuff in there, but apparently Martin has asked us not to discuss the specific issue on the boards until it has been resolved. Nothing to say we can't pass on web links to articles, though.

(If posting the link here is NOT acceptable, please, Martin or mods, do remove it - or PM me and I'll remove it myself.)

David_Brent

Marigold123 wrote:

While I agree totally that companies whose online ordering is full of holes are certainly at fault, I'm not sure that that LEGALLY entitles us to exploit those weaknesses.

When registering with a website a user agrees to abide by the terms and conditions of that site, including conditions of individual offers. Just because their ordering software is not well written, it doesn't mean we have a RIGHT to take advantage of it. If someone leaves their car unlocked, it doesn't mean a thief is allowed to steal the car or the handbag inside.

The way I look at using the codes is, for example when you goto a supermarket checkout hand over a voucher the cashier then has the option to accept it or decline it, if they accept it great, if not "oh well" , the exact thing is the same online, they have to option to turn away your order using their online system..as all these companies do.

Many supermarkets mis-price goods by mistake and at cashouts they are put through, and once the item is payed for its yours - does that make you a theif ? To compare using a online voucher to theft is absurd. The real issue is these companies have tried to continue using outdated online ordering sytems, and have tried to save money by not upgrading and got stung for it.