PCN in a controlled zone - no signs

Zeldazog

Hi

I recently appealed against a PCN I received a couple of weeks ago.

My car was parked up, for unloading into University building as we were setting up our degree show. Apparently it is a controlled zone, no parking or unloading.

I had entered the street via the university car park (exit only), and turned left up the street to the doors to unload.

There are no street markings, signs, etc. I got the PCN and on going back down the street (I had to go all the way as I couldn't go back into the car park, exit only), I see that at the bottom of the street, there is a sign.

However, as I did not enter the controlled zone at this point, I did not see the sign, and appealed on this basis.

I received a letter back today :

"the PCN was issued because the above vehicle was parked or loading/unloading in a restricted street.... at the entrance to the street is a sign to show the area is a CPZ which advises no parking or loading at any time. Drivers have to pass this sign in order to access the area. The CPZ was set up in consultation with the University, and in order to retain the rural appearance of the are, it is not marked with the traditional double yellow lines and kerb markings, and the CPZ sign at the entrance is sufficient to advise of the restrictions and no other signs or lines are required.

I am therefore unable to cancel the PCN..."

My argument, by entering the street from the university car park, I did not see the sign at the bottom of the street seems to have been ignored. You DO NOT have to pass the sign in order to access the area if you have driven through the university car park and out the back (not many reasons to do this, but it is possible).

Is this worth challenging, or will I be banging my head against a brick wall?

If I don't pay within 14 days, i will be liable for the full amount.

The letter states further

"if you wish to further challenge this PCN, you will lose the opportunity to pay at the discounted rate, and you must wait until you receive a "notice to owner".


So, from this, I get the impression that I cannot even query their point that actually you DON'T have to pass the sign...

Not sure what to do?

Coblcris

How did you drive into the zone to get into car park ?

Orford

Are you saying that the entrance to the University car park is outside the CPZ?

If this was a degree show, presumably you have attended the Uni for the last 3 years, and therefore should have been familiar with the area or was this in part of the Uni that you had never been to before?

Zeldazog

Coblcris:

I entered the car park by the entrance - I did say that I exited the car park via an exit only.



The entrance to the car park is on one street. The exit is into the controlled zone.

ORFORD

Yes, I have attended this university for three years. There are 2 sites for ADT. The new building, where we have very few sessions. We are not allowed to use the uni car parks, so if I have to attend anything in the main building, I usually park on the far side of it, near to where the main car park entrance is.

Most of my time was spent at the old buildings, again we cannot park there either, so I am usually parked down the street from them.

There has been no occasion in three years that I have had to drive from old building to new building, and if I did, knowing that the car park is EXIT only, I would have gone round the streets to the entrance.

I have no reason to usually drive UP this street that is a controlled zone, as it goes nowhere - dead end, apart from a field.

Orford

Zeldazog wrote: »

The CPZ was set up in consultation with the University, and in order to retain the rural appearance of the are, it is not marked with the traditional double yellow lines and kerb markings, and the CPZ sign at the entrance is sufficient to advise of the restrictions and no other signs or lines are required.

The use of non-statutory signage etc would have to be sanctioned by the Secretary of State. You need to ask the Council for a copy of this as well as the Traffic Regulation Order.

It's possible, I don't actually know, that signs only have to be on public roads, but in this case the Council say this was done in consultation with the Uni and therefore they should have taken into consideration that it was possible to enter the CPZ without passing any signs.

Where exactly is this?

Coblcris

So the Car Park bridges the Controlled Zone and the non controlled zone streets ?

Absent signs CPZ signs at the exit of the car park I would fight this PCN.

Their comment " Drivers have to pass this sign in order to access the area." is patently false under these circumstances.

Zeldazog

It's in Derby - entrance to Uni car park is Pybus Street (residents only parking in the daytime, all clearly marked), I exited in to Markeaton Street (controlled zone)

Just past the residential area of Markeaton Street is an allotment entrance. This where the sign is. The street carries on up behind the University building (which doesn't appear on all maps as is quite new).

The exit from the university car park is about 100 yards or so past the controlled zone sign. I was sited a further 50 yards up the road.

The entrance to the car park (Pybus Street) is a residents only zone between 8am and 6pm. As said, not sure if you can get back out that way, but the uni shuttle bus comes through the car park and down markeaton street.

The exit is onto Markeaton Street (the controlled zone). The bus and cars would normally turn right down the street to the main road at the bottom. In this case I turned left up the street to the rear entrance to the uni building as this is where my work was going.

I have already pointed out that I did not pass the sign as I did not drive up Markeaton Street (I will have to check my wording exactly, perhaps I didn't spell it out clearly) but they seem to be ignoring this.

Orford, is this how I should fight it, ask for the information you suggest? And if they come back with all the correct and allowed information, then what should I do?

Orford

Ok, got it:
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=Markeaton+Street&oe=utf-8&client=firefox-a&ie=UTF8&hl=en&hq=&hnear=Markeaton+St,+Derby+DE1,+United+Kingdom&ll=52.92849,-1.495605&spn=0.002341,0.003449&t=h&z=18&layer=c&cbll=52.928551,-1.495707&panoid=Y2Ji2BPIvJoNwJG8wt9yDQ&cbp=12,297.21,,0,5

although you can't read the sign clearly. The controlled zone only covers the bottom half of Markeaton Street itself, which is narrow, to prevent parked vehicles from blocking traffic exiting the Uni car park (which itself is No entry).

However that doesn't negate the fact that you can access it without passing the sign. Since you have already had a rejection of an informal appeal, if you want to fight this (and I would) you will have to wait for the NTO and make a formal appeal on the same basis. Once you reach the NTO stage you will have foregone the discount period and the full amount would be payable.- You can make further informal appeal before the NTo and although the Council is supossed to consider these, they usually ignore. They will almost certainly reject the formal appeal too, but I think you would have a good chance at adjudication

Zeldazog

Thank you Orford for explaining the process!

I did feel that I should appeal it, but glad you agree, as I wasn't sure if it was me just being on my high horse.

I will write again pointing out that they are wrong and that you can access the area without seeing the sign, but I suspect you're right and they will ignore it, probably hoping I will pay up and go away.

Coblcris

I concur, the council may well drop out of the process shortly before adjudication.

forgotmyname

If possible it maybe worth getting video evidence just in case they install new signs.

A HGV driver at work was involved in a minor accident at a junction, No road markings.

After reading the 3rd party's statement he went back to get evidence and they had since changed
the road layout & painted lines on the road. Changed priorities.