Car Tax Disc Problem - advise please!

molerat

Deepmistrust wrote: »

I have to use hire cars regularly, often on the way to...say the airport. I've never noticed anyone check the tyre depths, bulbs etc, when taking charge of a vehicle, to be honest.

A flat tyre is obvious, besides the car won't drive properly with one. Remembering a tyre tread gauge is probably not something many rental customers turn up with. Like any product or service you pay for, you expect it to be in reasonable condition and fit for purpose (hence the reason when it isn't, there is a case against the vendor).

And what if it has another fault which would be a MOT failure that is not so easy to check? Would the police not apply common sense if they stopped a motorist who had just rented a vehicle for Hertz.

The police may well use the common sense approach, a lot will depend on how you handle it with them, and then get VOSA to do a check on all their vehicles.

You do not need a tread depth gauge. Most of us are born with them, they are called eyes and fingers. Tyres have a tread wear indicator built into them. Look or feel in the treads and you will find a little lump which is set at 1.6mm, the legal minimum. Some tyres even have "TWI" embossed on the sidewall where the indicators are.

Correct, you do expect it to be fit for purpose but it can be difficult enforcing your rights from beyond the grave.

Deepmistrust

Quentin wrote: »

How can you be sure you won't be involved in an accident whilst driving your hire car? It may not be your "fault" if the tyres are illegal, but it's your fault for driving on them (and your life!).

As previously posted, maybe now get someone to teach you how to check and start doing it.

I can't be sure I won't be involved in an accident for many reasons. In fact on one occasion a tyre with a perfectly legal tread depth had a motorway blow out, (it was found to have a nail in it, which could have caused the blowout).

The point is, that when you hire from a reputable source, that you don't expect to do a quick MOT at the point of hire. I pay them to take care of that. In the same way the day I take my (own) car back from the garage after MOT or service, I wouldn't dream of checking the tyres etc as I have paid them to do that.

Seems a reasonable expectation to me. I'm not a mechanic, nor in anyway motor (maintenance) minded. I pay others to do it, nor would I tamper with my gas cooker connection - I pay someone else to do that. Same principle.

Quentin

Deepmistrust wrote: »

Seems a reasonable expectation to me. I'm not a mechanic, nor in anyway motor (maintenance) minded. I pay others to do it, nor would I tamper with my gas cooker connection - I pay someone else to do that. Same principle.

You seem to be missing the point in all this! (Maybe you are too posh to check your own tyres, or learn how to!)

But unfortunately it's not just your own life you are gambling with by not taking any responsibility.

(The point about being involved in an accident is that you cannot predict when it will happen, may be unrelated to your tyres, but if the tyres are nevertheless found to be illegal, then you as the driver will face the consequences - as you should)

Paradigm

Deepmistrust wrote: »

The point is, that when you hire from a reputable source, that you don't expect to do a quick MOT at the point of hire. I pay them to take care of that. In the same way the day I take my (own) car back from the garage after MOT or service, I wouldn't dream of checking the tyres etc as I have paid them to do that.

Seems a reasonable expectation to me. I'm not a mechanic, nor in anyway motor (maintenance) minded. I pay others to do it, nor would I tamper with my gas cooker connection - I pay someone else to do that. Same principle.

While I understand what you are saying, I think you're missing the point

It is the drivers responsibility to make sure the vehicle is roadworthy in the sense that the tyres are ok, the lights work, the brakes work etc. This applies to any car you might drive, including your own.

You don't need to be a mechanic to see that a headlamp isn't working for example & checks like these are hardly an MOT are they? Should you be stopped for a non-working headlamp it would be you, the driver, who was liable.

When hiring a vehicle you are assuming "in good faith" that it is MOT'd, taxed & insured... these are not your responsibilty but the stuff above is!

Deepmistrust

Quentin wrote: »

You seem to be missing the point in all this! (Maybe you are too posh to check your own tyres, or learn how to!)

But unfortunately it's not just your own life you are gambling with by not taking any responsibility.

(The point about being involved in an accident is that you cannot predict when it will happen, may be unrelated to your tyres, but if the tyres are nevertheless found to be illegal, then you as the driver will face the consequences - as you should)

Am I too posh to check my own cooker connection too? That's a bit ridiculous to be honest. I pay someone to do it, in the same way I pay someone to cut my hair, wouldn't do it myself, dont actually know what I'm doing (so what!? - I have my skills they have theirs, it's how trade works!).

The point you are ignoring is that I AM responsible, in that I PAY for these things to be checked already. I also pay the hire company and have the REASONABLE - not to mention LEGAL expectaction they are renting me a roadworthy vehicle.

Deepmistrust

Paradigm wrote: »

While I understand what you are saying, I think you're missing the point

It is the drivers responsibility to make sure the vehicle is roadworthy in the sense that the tyres are ok, the lights work, the brakes work etc. This applies to any car you might drive, including your own.

You don't need to be a mechanic to see that a headlamp isn't working for example & checks like these are hardly an MOT are they? Should you be stopped for a non-working headlamp it would be you, the driver, who was liable.


When hiring a vehicle you are assuming "in good faith" that it is MOT'd, taxed & insured... these are not your responsibilty but the stuff above is!

I'm making the assumption based up the laws of the country I live in. I'm also making the same assumption when I take the car to the garage that they have checked it's condition as roadworthy (as I have paid them to), that therefore it is roadworthy.

The question I am asking, is do hire companies not actually make sure their vehicles are roadworthy at the point of hire, and what legal obligation have they do ensure that they are?

I agree with headlamp, but Im less likely to know if the brake lights don't work. If it was my own vehicle, I obviously am responsible for the regular maintenance (and pay for it to be done accordingly), but in my rental agreement, I have the reasonable expectation that a the car is handed over to me in a roadworthy condition already. I understand if I had the car for a longer period where normal wear and tear on tyres would occur. But it has to be handed over to me in a legal condition surely.

In addition it has to be "fit for purpose" so if I hired the vehicle for say a week I would expect that the tyres were not borderline legal, and they would under the assumption of "normal" wear and tear last the week.

This is a question about the obligation of the hire company, rather than a question as to my own knowledge on how to first works a vehicle.

easy

Deepmistrust wrote: »

The point you are ignoring is that I AM responsible, in that I PAY for these things to be checked already. I also pay the hire company and have the REASONABLE - not to mention LEGAL expectaction they are renting me a roadworthy vehicle.

The point is that if you are pulled over and found to be driving a car with a bald tyre/out of date tax disc/non-working windscreen washers etc etc, you, as the driver, are seen to be liable. That is the law. If you have hired the car, then yes you MAY have legal redress for any fines or other consequential costs, but you would still have to carry any points on your licence, simply because the law says it is the DRIVERS responsibility to ensure the vehicle meets the statutory regulations.

Now, an individual copper may accept that you have hired the car, and allow you to contact the hire company to get it sorted (without driving it any further). But that policeman may have had a bad morning, and simply book you there and then.

Okay, a reputable hire company is unlikely to rent out a vehicle with bald tyres & so forth, but technically it is your responsibilty to check the vehicle out before you drive it away.

Same as you should if you borrow an old banger from your mate Dave.

Deepmistrust

easy wrote: »

The point is that if you are pulled over and found to be driving a car with a bald tyre/out of date tax disc/non-working windscreen washers etc etc, you, as the driver, are seen to be liable. That is the law. If you have hired the car, then yes you MAY have legal redress for any fines or other consequential costs, but you would still have to carry any points on your licence, simply because the law says it is the DRIVERS responsibility to ensure the vehicle meets the statutory regulations.

Now, an individual copper may accept that you have hired the car, and allow you to contact the hire company to get it sorted (without driving it any further). But that policeman may have had a bad morning, and simply book you there and then.

Okay, a reputable hire company is unlikely to rent out a vehicle with bald tyres & so forth, but technically it is your responsibilty to check the vehicle out before you drive it away.

Same as you should if you borrow an old banger from your mate Dave.

Thanks I appreciate what you are saying, it seems as though the law ignores that even if you pay someone (who is otherwised registered and skilled to national standads to do the work) to take care of these things, then the fallback still lies with you if they don't do it (or do it properly).

I guess with tyres and bulbs it's easy enough to blame the driver - as they can be checked easily enough, but where is the line drawn? Surely not on every aspect of the MOT? I expect I'm talking extreme cases here, but It would be nice to know that I'm not liable for more hidden MOT failures (in the event of a police stop) when in a rental car.

jimbms

Of course you should expect the car you hire to be safe, But to think that is 100% reliable and not even bother to do the basic checks you should do on your own car (tyres, lights, brakes when setting off) is plain stupidity.

Paradigm

Deepmistrust wrote: »

The question I am asking, is do hire companies not actually make sure their vehicles are roadworthy at the point of hire, and what legal obligation have they do ensure that they are?

I would say yes they are I would have thought that would be part of the rental agreement & you may have a case against the hirer if you were found to be driving with an illegal tyre for example.

Whether you would or not doesn't change the fact that in law it is the driver who would be held liable for the offence

easy wrote: »

The point is that if you are pulled over and found to be driving a car with a bald tyre/out of date tax disc/non-working windscreen washers etc etc, you, as the driver, are seen to be liable. That is the law. If you have hired the car, then yes you MAY have legal redress for any fines or other consequential costs, but you would still have to carry any points on your licence, simply because the law says it is the DRIVERS responsibility to ensure the vehicle meets the statutory regulations.

Not liable for out of date road tax, the registered keeper is!