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PCN from Slough Borough Council

Hi there all, help needed with a PCN. Appeal in process.

I wonder if any of you have any advice as I am in the middle of fighting my PCN from Slough Borough Council. I stopped for 6 mins on a yellow line, whilst the times were in force, to drop my poorly sister off. I felt I had to drop her off outside her house (where the yellow line with restricted times in force) due to her giddy state. She is currently in the process of being assessed to have Menieres disease (the docs are stating its probably going to be this but she's currently having proper scans to confirm this). I picked her up from seeing a health advisor to help her with her condition and dropped her off and had to help her inside. We were about to leave to attend another appointment at her son's school when the CEOs (enforcement officers) were at the car. I said we were leaving to go elsewhere and also explained that my sister was ill which is why I needed to assist her into the house and hence park just outside. They said I had parked for over five minutes (the photograph from the photo said the incorrect time and I had certainly not parked there during the time the ticket stated: it stated 14:52 to 14:57 [I am sure I parked at 14:56 and we left at 15:02]) and I said that we about to leave. The officer with the machine then stated that the ticket had already been issued. I then tried to explain again why it was so necessary stating the dizzy state of my sister and that we were heading off at that very moment. The officer did not reply to me at all. She then typed many things into the handheld instrument and proceeded to print off the ticket. Her typing the info in and printing it off took several minutes and I therefore assume that the ticket had not been issued at all. Furthermore she also seemed to be looking at the car and was standing near the tax disc (probably looking at it to get details) and the only time she gestured to me was for me to move out of the way whilst her colleague photographed my number plate and car, even though I was asking for her to explain to me what I could have done in the situation I found myself. I then asked that the officer remained at the scene whilst I verified some of their details. She then said the details would be on the ticket. I asked her to remain there whilst I verified the details nonetheless and she said yes. After stretching her arm out as if to give give me the PCN ticket then turn and slam the ticket on my car, I said "Please stay there whilst I get some paper and a pen from the car". once out of the car (took maybe 30 secs) both officers had moved some 10metres away and towards their car. I raised my voice to attract their attention and ran over to them and asked why they had moved away when the lady officer had clearly replied they would remain near the car. They both turned away from me and consulted each other before the man replied he was nearly deaf and therefore couldn't hear me. Anyway, thanks for reading, I have just looked at the Traffic Management Act 2004 doc online and section 8.77 states that if the PCN has not started being issued then the officer should not send the ticket via post if details are still being jotted down and ask the driver to comply with restrictions in future. I only stayed as a result of the lady officer stating that the ticket had already been issued which not only seemed to be a lie but also delayed me to my next appointment.

I have already sent an initial informal appeal stating everything out step by step (about 40 points). in response they rejected but said if I could supply them with evidence relating to my sister medical emergency they may reconsider. I sent them a copy of my sister doctor's note relating to the day in question. In the meantime I also spoke to a manager at the department who said he would investigate the behaviour of the CEO (who I believe lied and, had I just driven off, would not have had sufficient info to give me a ticket). He also stated that behavioural issues and why the fine is given are separate issues. I pushed my point that had the lady CEO not lied and said the ticket had already been issued then I would not have received the fine. He understood this to be a good point and said he would contact me re this. I have received nothing about it. Instead after over a month after I sent the doc note (I did not repeat my entire first letter in letter with the doc note but just quoted the key sentence in their initial reply to my first appeal) I have received a second letter stating 'Whilst I acknowledge receipt of the copy of your sisters' sick certificate however you have been unable to provide sufficient evidence to be taken into consideration and no grounds for cancellation have been established.' This seems a bit of a template with the bit about my sister's doc note thrown in (they haven't even removed the 'however' bit). It states that I should either pay and accept this decision or wait for the Notice To Owner (NtO).

I wish now that I had not been respectful and had just ignored the existence of the CEOs and driven off.

Anyway, I was hoping some of you out there may have had some luck or have some info relating to the fact my sister was ill and needed assistance into her home as well as the fact that the CEOs did not seem to have all the details to my car and also lied about the ticket already having been issued. Thanks for reading.
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Replies

  • edited 2 June 2010 at 3:38PM
    CrabmanCrabman Forumite
    9.9K Posts
    Part of the Furniture 1,000 Posts I'm a Volunteer Ambassador Combo Breaker
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    edited 2 June 2010 at 3:38PM
    Hi Ginz - welcome to MSE :)

    I've split your post into a new thread. So someone can help, could you take a look at the thread below and try to post your documents? Don't forget to remove personal/identifiable and vehicle information:

    How to Upload & Post Images (PCN/NtO/other related paperwork)

    Good luck with this. :)
    I'm a Board Guide on the Savings & Investments, ISAs & Tax-free Savings, Public Transport & Cycling, Motoring and Parking Fines, Tickets & Parking Boards. I volunteer to help get your forum questions answered and keep the forum running smoothly. Board Guides are not moderators & don't read every post. If you spot a contentious or illegal post then please report it to [email protected] (it's not part of my role to deal with this). Views are mine and not the official line of MoneySavingExpert.com

  • CoblcrisCoblcris Forumite
    1.9K Posts
    The PCN stuck on the car constitutes service.

    Claim the assisted alighting exemption, look up the WANAMBWA adjudication.
    It does not need to be a medical emergency.

    Which council is this ?


    Please write in paragraphs to make reading easier.
  • GinZGinZ Forumite
    21 Posts
    Hi Coblcris,

    thanks for replying so quickly. I have been looking up all sorts of sites to try and get this resolved as well learning the posting pics process. Ah yes, I should have read through the text before posting - it is rather difficult to read :embarrassed: I will paragraph next time thanks.

    The council is Slough Borough Council and I do recognise that I was foolish by staying put as the photograph of the ticket on my car makes it constitute service. However my point is that had the lady CEO not lied in stating the ticket was already issued when it had clearly not been then I wouldn't have been serviced with the ticket.

    Does it not count that I was duped into staying long enough that I received the ticket whereas they would not have had the info to service me. It does seem to state that in point 8.77 of the Traffic Management Act. It just seems wrong to me they can do that to me they can make you park long enough in order to validate them giving a ticket!

    I did make the point of assisting my poorly sister into her home and I wrote in again with a copy of her doctor's note. Unfortunately I think the fact I did not send in the original letter means that the person who replied to my second letter with doc's note included does not seem to mention the assisting part but merely acknowledges receiving the note.

    I will look up the WANAMBWA adjudication and hope I can quote something to make them take this issue seriously.Thanks.
  • Coupon-madCoupon-mad
    111.5K Posts
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    GinZ wrote: »

    I did make the point of assisting my poorly sister into her home and I wrote in again with a copy of her doctor's note. Unfortunately I think the fact I did not send in the original letter means that the person who replied to my second letter with doc's note included does not seem to mention the assisting part but merely acknowledges receiving the note.

    I will look up the WANAMBWA adjudication and hope I can quote something to make them take this issue seriously.Thanks.



    I know the lies of the CEO were pathetic in making you wait to be served with a PCN, but that's not going to be what wins you this appeal. I believe you should win this in the end, on the boarding/alighting exemption and the fact that the Council have not addressed your mitigating circumstances properly.

    Here's a pepipoo.com forum thread where the OP won by quoting Wanambwa:

    http://forums.pepipoo.com/lofiversion/index.php/t37725.html

    link to Wanambwa key case

    The Council have to give due consideration to mitigating circumstances or the adjudicator will direct them to do so (which usually means they then cancel the PCN). So make sure you make those mitigating circumstances clear again in your formal appeal - and state that in your view there has been a procedural impropriety because they have not addressed this properly in their earlier response.

    Their wording 'Whilst I acknowledge receipt of the copy of your sisters' sick certificate however you have been unable to provide sufficient evidence to be taken into consideration and no grounds for cancellation have been established' is rubbish really isn't it? I agree with you, it's just a standard response designed to try to make you pay up.

    IMHO if the Council still reject your formal appeal they will actually fold before the adjudicator gets a chance to tell them to revisit the PCN. That's what happened in the pepipoo thread above and is very common, it's a game a bluff to Councils.

    Let us know how you get on in due course, and if you want to post up a draft of your appeal wording before sending it off I am sure people will help with suggestions.
    PRIVATE 'PCN'? DON'T PAY BUT DON'T IGNORE IT (except N.Ireland).
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    Forum Home»Motoring»Parking Tickets Fines & Parking - read the NEWBIES THREAD
  • CoblcrisCoblcris Forumite
    1.9K Posts
    Assisted alighting is not mitigating, it is an exemption.
    Mitigation means admission of the contravention and is a plea for 'mercy'.

    An exemption means there is no contravention.
    Wanambwa makes this very clear in the first paragraph.
  • robredzrobredz Forumite
    1.6K Posts
    Coblcris wrote: »
    Assisted alighting is not mitigating, it is an exemption.
    Mitigation means admission of the contravention and is a plea for 'mercy'.

    An exemption means there is no contravention.
    Wanambwa makes this very clear in the first paragraph.

    An exemption is absolute you cannot ticket an activity that is "exempted"

    And mitigation is a plea for mercy or a reduction in penalty, on "Admission" of an offence.

    As a pcn is absolute and is a fixed penalty, mitigation is of no use.
  • CoblcrisCoblcris Forumite
    1.9K Posts
    Thank you for agreeing,
  • GinZGinZ Forumite
    21 Posts
    Thanks for clarifying that I should no longer run with the bad practices but with WANAMBWA adjudication and merely state that there has been procedural impropriety due to them not addressing my mentioned issues properly.

    Without such advice I would find it very difficult to know how to phrase or construct such argument with potentially so many issues to address.

    Thank you Coblcris, robredz and Coupon-mad for your support and advice.

    One further question, if I may, .... I was intending to send another letter to the Council mentioning the issue of my ill sister and the assisting alighting exemption (again, thanks for clearing up the difference between and exemption and mitigating circumstances) before I received the NtO.

    Is this wise or should I wait for the NtO to make the formal appeal via 'Representation'?
  • edited 2 June 2010 at 4:47PM
    CoblcrisCoblcris Forumite
    1.9K Posts
    edited 2 June 2010 at 4:47PM
    The council will effectively ignore any letter you send. They play brinkmanship so as to get people who do not know the rules and regulations to pay up. Often they push all the way to adjudication and then do a tactical withdrawal a few days before the appointed date.
    Despicable behaviour in my opinion and part of the reason why helpers post on here.

    Despite the clearest evidence to contrary a significant proportion of the public believes that 'The council must be right'.

    This is in no way critical of you personally, you had the wherewithal to post for help.
    It is just that even writing about council behaviour moves me to irritation, it should not and so for that I beg reader's forgiveness.

    Having said all that still send that letter, it will aid in your formal appeal to the NTO and could assist in claiming costs should this go to adjudication. Keep a signed dated copy of everything you send to to a council be it for parking or anything else.
  • GinZGinZ Forumite
    21 Posts
    Right then. I'll go ahead and send the letter. Thanks for letting me reduce my expectations of success at this stage. I'll let you know how it goes when I get some news.
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