Are the middle classes going to bail out the rest of the country?

Sir_Humphrey

ninky wrote: »

i'm quite concerned about what will happen in my area (tottenham). we've seen numbers of university admissions for local children double over the last ten years and the area has really come on leaps and bounds under labour.

what is going to happen to children in areas where the parents don't have the abilities to push for the better local schooling? it's all very well putting it in local hands but to me that just means the more privileged and pushy parents will get better schools for their kids whilst the poor are left to rot.

it's so so depressing. i've got quite down about it all over the weekend.

I can already read the next Labour manifesto in my mind.

The biggest obstacle to the new schools policy is cost control. It would be significantly more expensive than the existing set-up. Auditing would be a big problem without LA involvement. I just do not see where the money is supposed to come from.

Sir_Humphrey

drc wrote: »

Not all poor people are incapable of helping themselves. Some actually have a brain and can do quite nicely without being patronised by Labour's nanny state ethos of equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.

Money talks DRC, it is nothing to do with intellectual capability.

The "free school" idea is already falling apart in Sweden, where it has led to a lowering of standards. I see no reason why it should work any better in the UK.

nicko33

ninky wrote: »

yes. i believe this was on labour's agenda. to bring back a national bank like giro bank.

But why do we need another one?
NS&I is already somewhere safe to put savings.
I don't think we need a National bank for current accounts.

marklv

tomterm8 wrote: »

Would never work. The USA is a huge area, so the sales taxes work over distances the same size as Wales. Its not worth travelling the distance to get a cheaper tax rate. Whereas, you can often move country borders in a fifteen minute drive.

It could work if it was done regionally, not by county basis. I.e. one rate for the South-East, another for the West Midlands, South-West, Wales, etc.

ninky_2

drc wrote: »

Not all poor people are incapable of helping themselves. Some actually have a brain and can do quite nicely without being patronised by Labour's nanny state ethos of equality of outcome rather than equality of opportunity.

you'd be thinking of the likes of baby p's parents there then? given the highly burdened local social services dept in harringey / tottenham i really don't think that all children in my area are lucky enough to have parents who are going to campaign for the best schooling for them.

and if it's such a failure of a nanny state system how do you account for the massive rise in children going on to HE from a previously highly deprived area?

kennyboy66_2

marklv wrote: »

Economically, 'middle class' is purely an income related definition; socially, it's far more complex. The class concept is a 19th century one, born in a time when people like David Beckham, Michael Caine or Sir Alan Sugar could never have existed. People were born into a class and stayed there - until they died. Their children also stayed in that class. Nowadays, class has little meaning other than as an indicator of income.

Stacks and stacks of inventors and entrepeneurs from the 18th & 19th Century who were born poor

Richard Arkwright (born 1732)
James Hargreaves (1720)
George Stephenson (1781)
Thomas Telford (1757)

to name but a few. All born into or experienced poverty unimaginable these days, all would have attained a higher status than the people you mention. All had acheivements greater by a factor of 10

Difficult to make sports comparisons as probably only cricket of the team games codified. I'd imagine there were boxers & jockeys though who enjoyed similar Beckhamesque rises to fame.

lemonjelly

kennyboy66 wrote: »

Stacks and stacks of inventors and entrepeneurs from the 18th & 19th Century who were born poor

Richard Arkwright (born 1732)
James Hargreaves (1720)
George Stephenson (1781)
Thomas Telford (1757)

to name but a few. All born into or experienced poverty unimaginable these days, all would have attained a higher status than the people you mention. All had acheivements greater by a factor of 10

Difficult to make sports comparisons as probably only cricket of the team games codified. I'd imagine there were boxers & jockeys though who enjoyed similar Beckhamesque rises to fame.

I started a thread a while ago about the social impacts of the downturn. One thing I felt could happen, would be a resurgence in arts, culture and the like. Frequently great art is born out of poverty. I'd drag it back up, but I'm sure I'd be able to hear the groans from you all.

In answer to the OP, i think everyone will have to pay one way or another. However as Sir Humphrey says, money talks. I fear that those with higher wealth will be taking steps to protect what they have, whilst the majority contribute slowly but surely to reduce the deficit.

kennyboy66_2

lemonjelly wrote: »

I started a thread a while ago about the social impacts of the downturn. One thing I felt could happen, would be a resurgence in arts, culture and the like. Frequently great art is born out of poverty. I'd drag it back up, but I'm sure I'd be able to hear the groans from you all.

In answer to the OP, i think everyone will have to pay one way or another. However as Sir Humphrey says, money talks. I fear that those with higher wealth will be taking steps to protect what they have, whilst the majority contribute slowly but surely to reduce the deficit.

One of the great things in Liverpool between 81-84 was "Larks in the Parks".

Free music concerts in Sefton Park (Echo & the Bunnymen, Big Country, Bow Wow plus stacks of others).
These usual roughly co-incided with O' level results week, so is an essential reference point for people of my era.

marklv

kennyboy66 wrote: »

Stacks and stacks of inventors and entrepeneurs from the 18th & 19th Century who were born poor

Richard Arkwright (born 1732)
James Hargreaves (1720)
George Stephenson (1781)
Thomas Telford (1757)

to name but a few. All born into or experienced poverty unimaginable these days, all would have attained a higher status than the people you mention. All had acheivements greater by a factor of 10

Difficult to make sports comparisons as probably only cricket of the team games codified. I'd imagine there were boxers & jockeys though who enjoyed similar Beckhamesque rises to fame.

Maybe so, but these individuals were very much an exception. You could quote various artists and composers as well, but a few geniuses does not mean most poor people had social mobility - they did not. In the social norms of the 19th century there were clear social differences and these were very difficult to break through. Today we are all supposed to be chavs - even the privately educated Sam Cameron speaks like a council estate girl!

Pennywise

lemonjelly wrote: »

Frequently great art is born out of poverty.

As are great business ideas and inventions. After all, necessity is the mother of invention, or so they say!!

I've been an accountant for nearly 30 years, and have never seen such a low level of "true entreprenneurial activity" than the last few years. True, there's loads and loads of new "businesses" being started, but they fall into two groups - firstly those with money, either from redundancy payouts, early retirement on healthy pension, etc., who are starting "lifestyle" businesses - they hope to make a bit of money but aren't really bothered if it breaks even and highly unlikely to employ anyone, and the other group being those doing little more than "pretending" to be in business to get working tax credits. Of course, there are still some genuine entreprenneurs, but not many. Say 20 years ago, people were going into business often because of necessity and they worked damned hard to make it successful, and in turn, employed people, rented premises, contributed back into the local economy etc. I look at my client list today and see "consultants" and "ebayers" whereas 20 years ago, I was dealing with garages, shops, light industry, wholesalers, etc - quite a difference!

As a couple of true life examples. One guy, who took early retirement from a blue chip company spent the best part of £50k on a new "website" which failed spectacularly - not even achieving a single sale - £50k blown on payments to web designers, SEO specialists, etc etc. Another woman, who had two primary school aged children and a seriously ill husband started her own e-commerce site - had no money for outsiders so learned web design and seo herself, got cheap/fee domain names and hosting, etc., and has just turned over close to a million pound turnover with half a million net profit - she was determined not to end up stuck in a povery trap on benefits so she just got on with it and did what she thought she had to do. I see it time and time again - trouble is that there are fewer and fewer people who have the gumption and entreprenneurial spirit to take that leap of faith.