Converting to LPG / Autogas

Milky_Mocha

Hello

As a frequent commuter on long road journeys (average 120 miles per day) I have been on the lookout to replace my petrol Audi Avant with a diesel hatchback. However I'm now thinking of converting the Audi to LPG instead. My initial enquiries leads me to believe that this will cost under £2000.

Before I undertake the conversion I would really like to hear from anyone who has or knows someone who has actually done this. Did you regret it? What are the pros and cons experienced?

LPG is considerably cheaper than diesel and I'm thinking that since so few people use it there must be a reason?

Thanx

arkonite_babe

Whatever you do, get plenty of recommendations from people who have had it done!
My workplace experienced severe problems with a company who had been recommended to us by The Energy Saving Trust. The guy in question was registered with them, but turned out to be a total con merchant. He took the money from us (Incidentally, I work for a charity and this money was all coming from funding) and our van to do the conversion. 6 months later after numerous letters from ourselves, solictitors and the EST, we had to get the police to recover the vehicle. Conversion was never done and the parts that were returned to us were all bits. None of which would make up a full conversion kit, we also discovered the gas tank was an old one and not new.

Result? We still have no gas powered van and have lost a lot of money which we don't know if we will be able to recover.

BEWARE!

Milky_Mocha

Thanks, Arkonite_babe

I must admit I hadn't even thought about the possibility of ending up with a con merchant. I was thinking more about what damage conversion could do to a car's engine, implications for car insurance, whether it truly returns many more miles to the gallon etc.

Thanks for alerting me to this. I suppose many respectable garages or Audi dealers would probably refrain from carrying out such a major change to a vehicle which leaves it open to the cowboys. I'll keep my eyes and ears open.

Meanwhile has anyone actually had a conversion successfully done? I'd love to hear from you all, please.

Thanks again

TMWebster

Hi there,

I have an Audi A4 1.8se which I got LPG converted in 2000. I also had to make a decision between selling and buying a diesel or converting. I chose the latter because I do my own mechanics and had recently replaced some more expensive bits and generally I knew the car was sound. Whether you convert or not depends on your attitude to quite a few things. I have tried to list what I think the pros and cons are below:-

Cons:
1. Initial outlay. Mine cost £1500 which I paid for myself as I did not qualify for the “Powershift” grant at the time. As of a couple of years ago you no longer need a new car to qualify so if your car is no more than three years old it is probably worth looking into.
2. Power Loss. This is likely to be up to 10% and might frustrate you if you like your cars and their “grunt” however if most of your driving is on the motorway it is not really relevant.
3. Gas Tank. If you drive many miles you will not want a torroidal spare wheel type tank (too small). You will have a cylinder tank behind the back seats. This will take up approx 1/3 of your boot and will stop you increasing the size of the boot by dropping the back seats. Mine is a saloon with fixed back seats and I carry little luggage, hence not a problem for me.
4. Reliability. On restarting it takes 5 seconds of cranking to start. This is noticeable after re-fuelling or if you stall it. Though it has never failed to start this might put extra strain on the starter motor and battery. However mine has been extremely reliable.
5. Increase in Price of LPG. The government will be disproportionately increasing the fuel tax on LPG from April 2005; however this increase is phased over several years and so will not be very significant initially. A 1 pence increase on LPG is proportionally 3 times greater than a 1 pence increase on diesel.
6. Filling Time. LPG fills at about a quarter the rate of diesel. Not a problem for me since I use the time to work out how much I am saving. However if you are the impatient type this will irritate!

Looks like I’m painting a bad picture but all these are quite minor and not all will apply to you.

Here are the Pros:
1. Economy. I buy LPG for 28.4 pence/litre (supermarket price). My car does 6 miles/litre on LPG (7 mpl on petrol). This is approx. 1/3 the price of diesel. Factoring this economy to diesel prices equals 18 mpl = 81.7 mpg. There are not many cars that can achieve this at motorway speeds.
2. Feel Good Factor. The reason I took action was when I first filled my A4 with £50 of petrol. I now fill my LPG tank for £17.90 which does 400 miles. I am unable to fill my car without breaking into a broad grin as I stand shoulder to shoulder with the £50+ fillers!
3. Longevity. LPG like diesel is not a solvent like petrol. This is a major reason why diesel engines have greater longevity than petrol. My car has now done 175’000 miles and it still passes the MOT emissions test (gas version which is more stringent than petrol) by a factor of 20.
4. Back-up Fuel System. On a long trip to Switzerland the fuse blew on my petrol injectors. This might have been a problem but luckily I had a second fuel system on board which got me to a fuse selling shop (and all the way home again!).
5. London Congestion Charge. As long as you pre-register with the correct agency the vehicle is exempt.
6. Re-sale Value. The above comment adds some value to a potential buyer, if in the London area, as commuting everyday would save approx £1200 p.a. in congestion charges.

If I were buying a new car today I would buy diesel since I prefer the low torque and power characteristics. However if you already own a petrol car that you like and know well I would recommend converting.

I have enjoyed the experience and to date it has saved me approx. £4000 net, being £5700 I have not had to earn!!!!!

Hope this helps if you maganed to get this far!

leosayer39

Hi all,

Excellent post TMWebster,

Been looking for information as informative as your post for ages.

One question immediately comes to mind, does the government intend to gradually increase the price of LPG so that it eventually equals that of petrol?

Cheers

Leo

(only 50 posts? Hmmmm..... and, what is all this stuff about simon bottomley below? it's nothing to do with me as I am a 'one man band')

hmha0

Hi all,

I recently had my Volvo S40 converted to LPG. It's a '97 model which means I didn't qualify for the grant, which can be significant at 40% (depending on circumstances).

I paid £1500 for the conversion to be done and I've not looked back since. I know the initial outlay is alot, but I paid for it using my Sainsbury's Credit Card at 0% interest for 12 months which gives me enough time save the money for the conversion, the bulk of this saving is made by the cheaper running costs of the car!!

One thing that hasn't been mentioned so far is the insurance. I'm currently with elephant.co.uk and when I initially queried what effects the conversion would have on my premium they said that it would increase it by rougghly £100. I'm 22 years old and pay £1400 per year for my insurance (trust me, its the cheapest i could find!) so I thought with a bit of healthy blackmailing I could convince them to waive the fee. Which they did not!!! And even after a very long letter to customer services they still refused to refund my money!! I stayed with them however as I would lost my no-claims bonus built up thus far into the cover. Anyway, the sting in the tail is even though my insurance company are happy to take my money under the pretence that it makes me a higher risk (I fail to see how), in the event that I do have an accident and the LPG system is damageed in any way they will only repair the car to its original factory state, they will not repair the LPG system, which confuses me completely as to why I am being charged anything in the first place if the equipment isn't covered.

Only a handful of insurance companies will not charge you a greater premium for the conversion, so make sure you check prior to making your decision!

Anyway, moving on.....

TMWebster - I'd be very interested to know where you fill up at 28.4p/litre as the average around here (London) is 40p/litre, quite a large difference.

I opted for the torroidal tank in the spare wheel well, a 60 litre tank, which i can rarely fill to more than 45 litres. Do not expect to be able to fill the tank to its capacity, 80% is the most you'll get in there before it fills up, this is to allow for expansion.

If you've read up on the conversion should know that the car will still start on petrol but transfer to LPG. The information i read said that it runs on petrol only for a few seconds, however mine switches over when the engine temperature reaches around 45 degrees. On a cold day, this can take around 2 minutes of driving. Not sure if this is just my car though.

The company I had my conversion done by are called Alternative Fuel Co. Ltd and they are based in East London/Essex. Milky Mocha, you didn't say where you are based so I'm not sure if this company is a potential one to udnertake your conversion. If you are in the London region then their number is 020 8591 9292.

Whatever you do, make sure that the garage you take it to are fully approved by the LPGA. You can go on their website to find a full list of approved garages.

Hope this helps.

TMWebster

Thanks leosayer39, always nice to be appreciated.

I only tend to post when I think I know what I'm talking about. Problem is I then tend to write a tomb.

I agree with everything hmha0 said.

You can get competetive insurers who don't charge any premium for a conversion. Norwich union spring to mind. I have also used direct line and admiral. Your converter is likely to give you advice on this.

One further negative is that you can't use the channel tunnel.

28.4p per litre is availabe at asda and morrisons (a bit of a price war) in Bristol Cribbs Causeway. The local Shell is 32.9p and not so local shell is 36.9.

The problem (or benefit) is that a 1p difference at LPG levels is 3 times more than a 1p difference at petrol levels, but the human psyche tends to see the 1p not the percentage. ie the difference between paying 28.4p or 40p for LPG is the same as paying 85p or 120p for petrol. If there was this much fluctuation in petrol prices then people would make more effort to find cheaper fuel. Sorry if this depresses you (hmha0), but you can find independant retailers which can give you a much better deal.

My conversion was done by Blaze at Kemble airfield Gloucestershire, sadly no commission. But a great guy.

I have a 90 litre tank which I can fill with 65 litres, however I find that different companies have different pressure pumps. On the rare occasions that I fill at BP I can get nearly 70 litres. Though I don't feel this increase in range is worth the price premium.

This site

http://www.nicholsonmclaren.com/lpg_2004.htm

will tell you the governments plans for LPG duty. As I read it duty on LPG will increase by 1p per litre more than the duty on petrol and diesel for the next three years.

There is currently a 10p or 25% price difference between the most expensive and cheapest LPG suppliers (a much bigger differential than petrol or diesel). The extra profit being made on LPG by now must have paid for the set up of the infrastructure so some of the duty increases might get absorbed by the retailers, especially if there is some decent competition in the area.

Anyone thinking of converting should get on with it in my opinion as the next three years prices are "known". Make your money in these three years....who knows after that, but you might be lucky.

When I converted mine three years ago, everybody said that LPG wouldn't be cheap for long and I would get caught out. That was 5 years ago and I'm now buying it cheapest ever.

LPG is even cheaper in France. One supermarket a couple of years ago was selling for 19p (however many euros that is).

One more thing I've noticed is that LPG prices do not seem to increase with petrol / diesel. I guess because petrol / diesel prices are controlled by supply and demand. LPG being a higher distillate in the refining process has the same supply but currently less demand hence prices are more controlled by costs and competition.

If anyone is reading this in the market for a second hand car who has £10K to spend and likes their driving, don't buy a petrol and convert to LPG. Buy a BMW 530d (e39), superchip it and you will be driving "What Car's" "Executive Car of the Year" 7 years running, have over 200 bhp, 500NM of torque (same as M5) and at legal speed return over 50mpg. Ok I do have to spend slightly over £50 to fill it but I have got over 900 miles out of a tank before!!

If anyone can beat that performance for that economy for that price in that size car then please let me know!!

Milky_Mocha

TM Webster, thanks so much for your post. It is probably the most informative post I've read. I've done countless searches on google and elsewhere trying to find this kind of info but mainly came up with info about the grants which I'm not elligible for anyway. I was highly encouraged by your reply to convert until I read this bit:

TMWebster wrote:

One further negative is that you can't use the channel tunnel.

My heart sank right into my toes. I live 7 minutes from the channel tunnel and make frequent trips to France via that route. Does the same restriction apply if I take the car on the ferry at Dover? I hope not.

hmha0 I appreciate your post as well. If I am able to take an LPG vehicle on the ferry then I will contact Alternative Fuel Co. as Essex is not too far. THanks again.

andy88_2

Milky_Mocha, investigate prices for this work in France, Belgium and especially Netherlands. Very likely to be half the price or less. The basic job is about £300 of gear and 8 to 15 hours work and ludicrously overpriced here.

A friend was very tempted to do it when we were in Lithuania last year for ~£300, but it was a bit more technical for that car and the bits would not have come in time.

Talking of Lithuania, a friend/colleague has driven to/from home a few times, and has a converted car. So the ferry is ok, but he said no to the tunnel when I mentioned it the other day.

ED_WOOD_3

Another point to mention is if your car is still under warranty it may be affected by having it converted,some makers can be very funny about it.

Milky_Mocha

ED_WOOD wrote:

Another point to mention is if your car is still under warranty it may be affected by having it converted,some makers can be very funny about it.

No my car is now five years old so that should not be a problem. It's automatic though. D'you think that would be an issue?