'What's legal tender?' discussion

kittykitten

This will always be a never-ending debate. I think it has nothing to do with the scottish-english hating debate, and everything to do with lack of familiarity, but people will always use it as an excuse for scots to start english-bashing and vice versa. Both sides are equally bad! Incidentally you can pay for your goods in Euros in M&S but unless the cashier is familiar with the euro notes you're likely to have to wait for them to call a supervisor to check them, so it's not just scottish notes!

When I worked for Wilkinsons we used to accept Scottish and NI notes, but I did always have to check with a supervisor on the odd occasion I was passed a NI note - we simply got out the list that had been supplied by head office, complete with pictures, and checked the note with the 'forgery pen' to make sure it wasn't a fake. I was supposed to check English £50 notes in the same way because they're so rare. Because we're relatively near the border we'd get quite a few scottish £5 and £10 notes so that wasn't as much of a problem - as people have already pointed out, when you're handling something regularly you get to know how to check easily for forgeries. Clydesdale bank notes I always checked more carefully though - you don't seem to see as many of them as the other scottish notes, not sure why?

I moved on from wilkinsons to work for Lloyds TSB. We each had a bundle, in our till at the bank, of 'waste' notes. Into this bundle we put all notes that we deemed too soiled/ragged to be given back out to customers, and all Scottsih/NI/channel islands/IOM notes. We'd exchange these over the counter without a charge, as long as the person exchanging them was a LTSB customer. Every so often we'd send these bundles to head office, where the notes that weren't BoE would be sent back to their respective issuing banks. Through this I got to know the Scottish/NI/Channel Islands/IOM notes, so personally would have no qualms about accepting them in change now even though it's 5 years since I worked for LTSB.

I do wonder if part of the problem about getting these notes accepted in England is the fact that there are 3 different variations of scottish notes, which in reality means shop assistants see three times less the number of each note than they would if there was just one type of scottish note, so are even less familiar with them? I agree that there's no excuse for rudeness, and in an ideal world they'd be accepted everywhere in the UK without anyone batting an eyelid, but in these days of numerous forgeries (believe me, there are, we used to see tons of forgeries when I worked for LTSB, including english £50 notes) business owners have to do something to try and keep down the chances of them having to carry the loss that's incurred when they accept a forgery, so I can understand the reason why some small businesses in particular refuse to accept anything that's not BoE. Also if some banks charge business customers just to pay cash in or change cash, bearing in mind that the business is unlikely to get a customer who's happy to accept scottish notes in their change, again what you're asking them to do by paying with a scottish note is take a loss.

Personally, if I ran a business where they wanted to charge me just for something like paying in scottish notes I can't get rid of in any other way, I'd be looking to change banks!

kitekat

Basically if your notes are questioned in a store take them back and walk out the door,dont give them your hard earned they dont deserve it and they should be 100% knowledgeable on what is legal tender and whats not, its not youre job to try to convince them otherwise.Through losing lots of sales the companies may just decide to train their staff properly,but dont hold your breath.

rapido

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Brian_The_Lion

gozaimasu wrote: »

lizalloareds wrote: »

Why go on holiday in England with Scottish notes if they are going to refuse your money? Show appreciation of their racism by going on holiday to Ireland instead.

Money is paid into our bank accounts by our employers, who may be Scottish, English, Welsh or Northern Irish, and although at this point they are GBP, it's all just numbers.

As soon as you take cash out of a cash machine, you are discriminated against. Yes Brianthelion, Scots do it too, but I've never had any retailer in Scotland refuse an english note, only NI ones have been refused; poor NI, I can sympathise

The only way to avoid being refused a sale from note discrimination is to pay by card. You may be paid in Scotland and take out Scottish notes from a bank, but retailers will quite happily take the GBP direct from your bank account.

I don't accept the argument about refusal being acceptable because the english do not see enough Scottish notes to be able to tell which are fakes or not. There's the lack of education.

It's like a good few years ago when you would rarely ever hear a Scots accent on TV and it's why nowadays english people say they don't understand people when they have a scots accent. Being force-fed english biased media up north by the BBC means that we understand all accents, from Geordie to Scouse to everything else, but not even a perfectly enunciated English because it's pronounced in a Scots accent.

We should be accepting, celebrating and enjoying the union of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. Otherwise what's the point of it existing if we're all squabbling with each other?

So the English have a lack of education then? Whilst its Ok for the Scots to refuse NI notes?

Brian_The_Lion

anotherginger wrote: »

i've just about stopped trying to pay with NI money in England, its not worth their stupid looks and the 'i'll have to get the manager'. i have also left rounds of drinks on bars because they are idiots. their loss!

i was on one of my many flights back to NI one time and the English couple beside me were asking for tips about where to go, what to see etc, and then got on to saying that they would probably visit more often if they didn't have to change their currency. cue a surprised look from me and a brief education on the differences between Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland. they were a bit embarassed!

This is the only valid example so far of being uneducated I have seen posted. I also have been surprised at the amount of people that dont understand that Ireland is split in two.

Brian_The_Lion

rapido wrote: »

Yes, Hong Kong.

If I remember correctly, only a $10 note is produced by the government. The other banks produce many different denominations.

-rapido

Cool, thanks for that I always wondered if any foreign countries did this...

narty

moonrakerz wrote: »

ArrrGGGHHHH !

A shop can ask for payment in beads if it wishes, you can offer payment in
blankets and beads if you wish ! You have to agree between you as to what the currency will be

"Legal Tender" is an arcane phrase which has NOTHING to do with the average transaction "over the counter".

"Legal Tender Guidelines

Legal tender has a very narrow and technical meaning in the settlement of debts. It means that a debtor cannot successfully be sued for non-payment if he pays into court in legal tender. It does not mean that any ordinary transaction has to take place in legal tender or only within the amount denominated by the legislation. Both parties are free to agree to accept any form of payment whether legal tender or otherwise according to their wishes. In order to comply with the very strict rules governing an actual legal tender it is necessary, for example, actually to offer the exact amount due because no change can be demanded"

Moonrakerz- I think you miss my point. I did not say that payment HAS to be made in legal tender, but I meant that if legal tender is offered in payment of a debt it cannot be refused (on the basis that if it went to court, that is the way that payment would be deemed to have been made). My understanding, based on law lectures about twenty years ago so quite possibly imperfect, is as in this example: I stay the night in a hotel at an agreed price of £100. The hotelier asks for payment and I offer it him £100 in Scottish bank notes. He is perfectly within his rights to reject the payment as Scottish banknotes aren't legal tender, but of course he could accept it if he wants to. He could also accept it in cowrie shells if he wanted and if I was happy. I then offer him £100 in BoE £20 notes in settlement of the debt. He cannot refuse this as settlement of the debt as it is the legal way to settle a debt. If he does refuse it then he foregoes his right to receive payment.

How else could it work- The hotelier could not demand payment in any particular form unless it he had done so when the contract was made. How else could it work- I go to pay and he says he will only accept payment in zlotys? Of course he couldn't do this. The contract was made under English law, which allows for payment in a form acceptable to both parties, the minimum for which is legal tender. He would not be able to say that I hadn't tried to pay the bill if is had been offered in legal tender.

I agree with you that "Both parties are free to agree to accept any form of payment whether legal tender or otherwise according to their wishes." My point only relates to when one party refuses to accept legal tender in payment of a debt.

I hope you have got over your "ArrrGGGHHHH !" now.

pure_dead_dopey

greenpixie wrote: »

At the cafe I work in I'm not allowed to take scottish notes, we used to when i first started working back in the day but the bank actually advised my boss not to take any because of the amount of fakes around. We even took a few because none of us personally know how to check and I have never be taught.

She is not legally required to take them, we have a big sign by the till saying that we do not accept them, but she is a big softie and if the customer doesn't have any other money on them we do normally take them, but that is at her discresion and I always make her check them so if they are fake I don't get blamed.

Even when I worked at Morrisons we never got taught how to tell if they were real or not and I was on the tills, we had to call a supervisor over to check them which i thought was ridiculous, makign the customer wait five minutes just so that they could check her money when they could of taught us how.

Well GREENPIXIE i for one would not be entering the cafe, let alone pleading for the owner to accept my money, don't see it being in business for long, hope its not in a tourist area. What a terrible impression to give anyone, its quite amazing that no one has complained about the sign.

romagaro

The reluctance in accepting Scottish bank notes in England is nothing new. Back in the 1950's, shops/banks would only give 19 shillings & 6 pence for every Scottish £1 note. The excuse given for this rip-off was the cost of the administration of the exchange, but the full value of Bank of England notes was given when exchanged in Scotland.

Whilst in business in London in the 1980's, I visited a pub in the evening and ordered a pint of beer. Upon being presented with the beer, I tried to pay the barmaid with a Scottish £1 note (Bank of England £1 notes were still in circulation at that time). She refused to accept the note, and I explained to her that I was down from Scotland and that I only had Scottish notes in my wallet. She said "that was too bad", and then poured the beer down the sink! I had then to leave the pub without my drink, and the pub lost the sale of a pint of beer - I could not believe it!

More recently, I visited Sheffield on a "Cultural Tour" with several English friends. In a well known Sheffield Real Ale pub I ordered 8 pints of beer, and tendered a Scottish £20 note in payment, which the barman refused to accept. As he had already poured all of the beers, I was all for walking out of the pub and leaving him with the 8 pints. Unfortunately, one of my English friends insisted in exchanging notes with the barman, and so we remained in the pub with our beers. However, personally, I have never revisited this pub on subsequent returns to Sheffield, and this is what people should do when presented with intransigence.
:beer:

Boggles1234

targaid wrote: »

But, are you saying you don't bank your money at least once a week anyway? So what difference does it make to you to bank any 'nationality' of note?
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We bank daily. However we never bank £5 notes as we go through too many of them and they are the most common Scottish note we are offered so it would cost us more.