Atos medical, got a letter & have a few questions

stazi

donny909

There are no 'findings' relating to the IB50, and no points have been awarded. ATOS will have read your IB50 and have decided the you need a medical examination.

At the medical, ATOS will produce a report IB85, which is then used by JCP. A JCP Decision Maker (DM) will decide- not ATOS- how many points you score from the report.

If you score 10 for mental health, or 15 for physical, then you will satisfy PCA for the time being and form IB74 will be sent to you.

If you score less than 10/15, your IB will be disallowed by the JCP DM, and your appeal rights will be explained to you on form IB65. You can ask JCP for a copy of the report IB85.

As JS477 suggests, you can/should take a witness (who may make notes) with you into the examination. Finally, as a matter of ATOS policy, it is unlikely that they would permit the audio/video recording of a PCA medical at their examination centre.

donny909

Been reading on the requests for recordings to be made etc and how they charge through the roof by demanding unreasonable conditions for the spec of the recording to be made. I find it funny how they do that when with all other disputes relating to benefits etc that go to court and or tribunal that a simple very low spec phone recording is thought of as being acceptable and legally valid at a court hearing etc. Wander why atos feel the need for such conditions therefor?. It certainly don't seem like they are in line with what is thought of as acceptable quality for recording as with other departments etc. Wander if I could challenge there demands for such excessive spec recording equipment when all other issues and cases even phone recordings are acceptable as evidence.

Of cause I'll take someone as a witness but from what I can tell it's not exacally illigal to record the medical with my own equipment. That might not be acceptable as evidence if I failed the medical through there lies and goto a tribunal. But at least I'd have evidence to expose there lies on a public level if things go that far.

Also is there a reason why I cant ask to go through the answers on there screen before I leave the medical?. Can I even ask for or obtain a copy of the questions they should be asking at the medical to ensure I'm asked the questions I'd probably pass on and not just asked the ones that would fail me?.

Uncertain

donny909 wrote: »

Been reading on the requests for recordings to be made etc and how they charge through the roof by demanding unreasonable conditions for the spec of the recording to be made. I find it funny how they do that when with all other disputes relating to benefits etc that go to court and or tribunal that a simple very low spec phone recording is thought of as being acceptable and legally valid at a court hearing etc. Wander why atos feel the need for such conditions therefor?. It certainly don't seem like they are in line with what is thought of as acceptable quality for recording as with other departments etc. Wander if I could challenge there demands for such excessive spec recording equipment when all other issues and cases even phone recordings are acceptable as evidence.

Of cause I'll take someone as a witness but from what I can tell it's not exacally illigal to record the medical with my own equipment. That might not be acceptable as evidence if I failed the medical through there lies and goto a tribunal. But at least I'd have evidence to expose there lies on a public level if things go that far.

It is not illegal to covertly record a conversation you are party to and, as far as I'm aware this is no different. By this I mean you are not committing any criminal offence.

However, if they are aware you are recording they are quite within their rights to decline to carry out the "medical".

I'm am aware of what ATOS say on this subject in their "small print" however, at the two "medicals" I've attended I've not seen any notice seeking to prevent recordings not have I been asked / told. They do not have the power to conduct any search.

nolegion

This thread has now reached a point similar to one at this site I was looking at (but not contributing to) last year, although it had kind of gound to a halt, or had been halted.

What I would much like to informed about please, is exactly what are the current DWP\ATOS supposed ‘recording rules’ for ‘medicals’?

The wording considered in the Appeal case CIB/3117 was reported as:
.
"Claimants may request that their interview and assessment by a Medical Services doctor in respect of a benefit claim be recorded either on audio or videotape. Such a request can only be agreed with the prior consent of the HCP [health care professional, in this case an examining doctor], and then only if stringent safeguards are in place to ensure that the recording is complete, accurate, and that the facility is available for simultaneous copies to be made available to all parties present. The recording must be made by a professional operator, on equipment of a high standard, properly calibrated by a qualified engineer immediately prior to the recording being made. The equipment must have facility for reproduction so that all parties can retain a copy of the tape.

The responsibility for meeting the cost of the above requirement rests with the claimant.

Any request by a claimant for an assessment to be audio or videotaped must be declined unless the above safeguards are in place."

Is it any different today? Is there any online resource which will clearly tell me? I would be most grateful for any informed comments.

Uncertain

nolegion wrote: »

This thread has now reached a point similar to one at this site I was looking at (but not contributing to) last year, although it had kind of gound to a halt, or had been halted.

What I would much like to informed about please, is exactly what are the current DWP\ATOS supposed ‘recording rules’ for ‘medicals’?

The wording considered in the Appeal case CIB/3117 was reported as:
.
"Claimants may request that their interview and assessment by a Medical Services doctor in respect of a benefit claim be recorded either on audio or videotape. Such a request can only be agreed with the prior consent of the HCP [health care professional, in this case an examining doctor], and then only if stringent safeguards are in place to ensure that the recording is complete, accurate, and that the facility is available for simultaneous copies to be made available to all parties present. The recording must be made by a professional operator, on equipment of a high standard, properly calibrated by a qualified engineer immediately prior to the recording being made. The equipment must have facility for reproduction so that all parties can retain a copy of the tape.

The responsibility for meeting the cost of the above requirement rests with the claimant.

Any request by a claimant for an assessment to be audio or videotaped must be declined unless the above safeguards are in place."

Is it any different today? Is there any online resource which will clearly tell me? I would be most grateful for any informed comments.

Nobody disputes that this is ATOS's stated position. The point is what happens if you make a covert recording despite this?

If it follows the same path as employment tribunals these type of recordings have been accepted as evidence under certain circumstances. If you caught the ATOS HCP doing something criminal (e.g assaulting the patient) I'm sure the police would act. If you were to sue ATOS in a civil court it would be up to the judge to decide whether to admit the evidence having heard both sides arguments.

healy

nolegion wrote: »

This thread has now reached a point similar to one at this site I was looking at (but not contributing to) last year, although it had kind of gound to a halt, or had been halted.

What I would much like to informed about please, is exactly what are the current DWP\ATOS supposed ‘recording rules’ for ‘medicals’?

The wording considered in the Appeal case CIB/3117 was reported as:
.
"Claimants may request that their interview and assessment by a Medical Services doctor in respect of a benefit claim be recorded either on audio or videotape. Such a request can only be agreed with the prior consent of the HCP [health care professional, in this case an examining doctor], and then only if stringent safeguards are in place to ensure that the recording is complete, accurate, and that the facility is available for simultaneous copies to be made available to all parties present. The recording must be made by a professional operator, on equipment of a high standard, properly calibrated by a qualified engineer immediately prior to the recording being made. The equipment must have facility for reproduction so that all parties can retain a copy of the tape.

The responsibility for meeting the cost of the above requirement rests with the claimant.

Any request by a claimant for an assessment to be audio or videotaped must be declined unless the above safeguards are in place."

Is it any different today? Is there any online resource which will clearly tell me? I would be most grateful for any informed comments.

As far as I know it is still the same.

Someone has posted a link in the last day or two.

nogginthenog

healy wrote: »

No they will not need you to fill in another questionnaire, you will be mainly judged on the medical that you are due to have. It is not unusual to have to wait a number of months until you attend the medical.

The Doctors and Nurses are not paid bonuses but a flat rate fee for each medical.

You can ask for the medical to be recorded but you would have to pay for this to be done professionally if they agree to it.

If you are seriously thinking about having the medical recorded by a proffesional, I would advise writing to ATOS and asking for the criteria needed to be sent to you so you can inform your audio engineer.

Atos will also need time to find a medic who will be willing to go along with the recording.

nolegion

Thank you very much, Uncertain, healy, and noggin.

Then if, even despite CIB/3117, the situation is unchanged:

1. As regards ‘overt’ recordings in Atos ‘medicals’, I suspect the real truth is that all the ‘recording standards’ and ‘qualified engineer’ claptrap is just oppressive bunkum and blind: the wording still states that the consent of the relevant healthcare professional must be gained, and in practice I don't believe Atos has any intention of agreeing to a claimant recording an assessment whatever he or she does. Anybody here with any certain evidence that it has actually ever been permitted to happen?

(And, if I am right on this, anxious claimants should be advised not to waste their time and money trying to a get a recorded interview set up. That result is wrong, in my opinion, and disgracefully so, but unless and until another claimant wants to take on the DWP uo to Judge\Commissioner appeal level...)

2. Consquently, if you want any better account of what happened in an interview than the one Atos will produce, you have nothing to lose by recording covertly. I agree that it is not illegal,, and following the emploment appeal case of Amwell v Doherty which has stood as reasonably clear authority as regard the admissibility of covertly recorded evidence for some while now, it could prove cogent evidence indeed (in quite a number of possible further appeals\claims\reviews etc.).


Anybody disagree?

healy

nolegion wrote: »

Thank you very much, Uncertain, healy, and noggin.

Then if, even despite CIB/3117, the situation is unchanged:

1. As regards ‘overt’ recordings in Atos ‘medicals’, I suspect the real truth is that all the ‘recording standards’ and ‘qualified engineer’ claptrap is just oppressive bunkum and blind: the wording still states that the consent of the relevant healthcare professional must be gained, and in practice I don't believe Atos has any intention of agreeing to a claimant recording an assessment whatever he or she does. Anybody here with any certain evidence that it has actually ever been permitted to happen?

(And, if I am right on this, anxious claimants should be advised not to waste their time and money trying to a get a recorded interview set up. That result is wrong, in my opinion, and disgracefully so, but unless and until another claimant wants to take on the DWP uo to Judge\Commissioner appeal level...)

2. Consquently, if you want any better account of what happened in an interview than the one Atos will produce, you have nothing to lose by recording covertly. I agree that it is not illegal,, and following the emploment appeal case of Amwell v Doherty which has stood as reasonably clear authority as regard the admissibility of covertly recorded evidence for some while now, it could prove cogent evidence indeed (in quite a number of possible further appeals\claims\reviews etc.).


Anybody disagree?

Numerous people have asked about recording a medical with consent but I have never heard of anyone carrying it through.

You are probably right that they do want to deter people and I would be surprised to hear of a Doctor agreeing to it AND the claimant paying for it.

I do not think the tribunal would take any notice of the employment appeal quoted as it is a different type of appeal.

nolegion

Thanks again, healy.

Of course, whether or not any subsequent tribunal or court is going to consider itself ‘bound’ by the decision on point of law in Amwell View remians to be seen (as far as I am aware, corrections welcome) . It could also be ‘overruled’ by a senior court or ‘distinguished’ on the facts of another case. But it has remained the leading legal authority as regards the admissibility of covertly recorded evidence in civil proceedings for about half a decade - and I think it is likely to remain so for some while yet. It is just a clear and, in my view, sensible and practical decision, from what is in fact a very senior tribunal.

Even if, for whatever reason, trying toget a ‘covert’ recording ‘onto the map’ didn’t work in a benefits appeal, I don’t see that a claimant has lost anything by trying. If you haven’t got the recording, you can’t even try; and at the very least it could work as a potent aide-memoire for oneself.

And your experience and the silence of others, seem to confirm my suspicions that the DWP\Atos is not in practice going to permit any overt recording under any circumstances, (unless and until a Judge manages to get further off the fence than Judge Wikeley did in CIB/3117, at any rate).

So, any way you add it up, get covertly recording, claimants is my recommendation. And if, further down the line, any Atos health professional comes to regret that they didn’t know they were being recorded, they will have no-one but themselves to blame.

[Disclaimer: I neither confirm nor deny I’m a lawyer, but if you rely solely on anonymous personal views in an on-line forum, you do so entirely at your own peril.]