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Alliance & Leicester. The !!!!!. And Al Capone.
PhylPho
Posts: 1,443 Forumite
Warning:
A long post. If you wish to read it, then sitting down with a cup of coffee or something alcoholic may be advisable.
Also: if you have £1 million of ill-gotten gains which you need to launder, please pm me immediately: Mrs P and I are members of The M@fia. Just ask the Alliance & Leicester if you're unsure.
To begin:
Seven years ago, a builder purchased a very large but decrepit “gentleman’s residence” called The Larches. The Larches stands in two acres of its own grounds. The grounds front onto Meadow Road. A mixture of properties is ranged along the length of Meadow Road: detached and semi detached houses, bungalows, terraced cottages with build dates from the 1830s to the 1980s.
Meadow Road runs through a semi-rural city suburb. The suburb has evolved from a traditional English village. The village gives its name to the suburb. For the purposes of this post, let’s call the suburb: Greenville. Again, for the purposes of this post, let’s say Greenville is in Berkshire.
The Larches is not untypical of large, Victorian properties: it has never had a street number. Also, not untypically -- because it was originally constructed before the street outside it was formally named ‘Meadow Road’ -- its address was always simple and straightforward:
The Larches, Greenville, Berkshire.
The builder converted The Larches, Greenville, Berkshire into eight apartments. Six years ago, my wife and I purchased and moved into number 4. Where we’ve happily been ever since:
4, The Larches, Meadow Road, Greenville, Berkshire + Postcode.
As the terms of our current Cash ISAs (we have one apiece) are coming to an end and reverting to a fraction of a percentage interest, we decided to open a 2010-2011 ISA with another provider and transfer in our current ISA holdings. No problem. Alliance & Leicester allows exactly that.
We filled in the online application form with all the required details. The application form also asked for our postcode. We provided that, too. The form came up with a list of all eight apartments at The Larches, numbered 1 to 8. So we clicked on 4, The Larches. Because that, er, is where we live.
The form now represented our address in presumably the way that this address is rendered on whatever standard postcode database UK companies use: 4, The Larches, Greenville, Berkshire, Postcode.
However.
The online form failed entirely to reconcile its own data with its own address format. It placed the number 4 into the little box denoting house name / house number. And it placed The Larches into the little box denoting the street address.
But The Larches is not a street. It's a building. Duh.
We therefore corrected this mispresentation by placing the number 4 and the building's name in the topmost box of the address list. And we then inserted Meadow Road into the street box. All done. All now accurate.
Alliance & Leicester duly acknowledged our online applications by email. Then, five days later, my wife and I received a letter apiece in respect of same. The letters said Alliance & Leicester had undertaken its usual security checks but on this occasion had been unable to complete these checks on the basis of the information provided.
Accordingly, Alliance & Leicester required us to obtain photocopies of a variety of original documents. Each photocopy would have to be certified by a third party of reputable standing. That third party would also have to fill in a form testifying to who they were and the truthfulness of their certification. All these signed, dated and certified materials must be submitted to Alliance & Leicester before it could proceed further.
Now. . .
Never in all the years that we have held savings accounts, ISAs, insurances etc etc with different providers have we ever been required to indulge in this kind of certified photocopy rigmarole. Nor does anyone of our acquaintance fall into the category so esteemed by Alliance & Leicester – well, our doctor and sub-postmaster do, but why should we need to involve either in our private financial affairs? What does it have to do with them?
A mystery. We have lived at 4, The Larches for five years. We are on the Electoral Roll. Alliance & Leicester's online form asked for our National Insurance numbers, our landline phone number, our bank account details, our bank name and address, our date and place of birth in the UK. . . and our mother’s maiden names.
We provided all that. So just what kind of paranoid Orwellian State are we living in that Alliance & Leicester deems all that specific, on-record and easily checkable information to be inadequate?
Explanation dawned belatedly. Only when we looked at the address to which Alliance & Leicester had sent its letters did it become obvious:
Mr John Smith, Mrs Jane Smith, The Larches, 4, Meadow Road, Greenville, Berks postcode.
Only thanks to the postie’s usual miracle of delivery had we ever received the correspondence at all.
We immediately rang A&L. The conversation went as follows:
Us: ‘Hi. You’ve sent us a letter saying you can’t process our ISA application because you’ve been unable to complete your security checks. Why is that?’
A&L: ‘Let’s have a look at the file. Right. Sorry about this, Mr Smith, Mrs Smith, but we’re obliged to conduct anti-fraud checks – we have to abide by money-laundering legislation.’
Us: ‘We appreciate that. But why is it that despite all the information we’ve given you, you’re telling us it’s not sufficient?’
A&L: ‘I’m sorry. But you’ll understand, Alliance & Leicester has to take all precautions.’
Us: ‘And would an elementary precaution be to check the name of the app,licant against the address of the applicant?’
A&L: ‘Well yes. Of course.’
Us: ‘So when Alliance & Leicester checked 4, Meadow Road, Greenville against our names, it discovered that a family of a completely different name lived there?’
A&L: ‘Well the team who deal with applications, I can’t speak for what they do exactly.’
Us: ‘But reconciling a name to an address, that’s just a basic thing, surely? As in: do Mr and Mrs John Smith live at 4, Meadow Road, Greenville or not?’
A&L: ‘Yes.’
Us: ‘But we don’t live at 4 Meadow Road. We never have. And we never told your company that we did. Alliance & Leicester has taken the information we gave it, rewritten it, and then sent out two letters to an address that only Alliance & Leicester, and no-one else, thinks we live at.’
A&L: ‘Pardon?’
Us: ‘We live at 4 The Larches, Meadow Road, Greenville. Alliance & Leicester has changed that to The Larches, 4 Meadow Road, Greenville. Having changed it, Alliance & Leicester has then -- presumably -- checked the Electoral Roll and discovered there's no Mr & Mrs Smith at 4 Meadow Road at all.'
A&L: ‘Ah. . . Please hold.’
So we hold. And hold. And hold. And then:
A&L: ‘Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused. I’ve notified the people dealing with your application about this.’
Us: ‘So?’
A&L: ‘I’m sorry – so?’
Us: ‘So having corrected its own mistake, Alliance & Leicester can now go ahead with all its usual checks and drop this requirement to get documents photo-copied and signed and some Lord of The Manor or other to read everything through and also sign his name to the paperwork. Not necessary, is it? You've got more than enough verifiable information.’
A&L: ‘Er, well. . . You see, we’ve not been able to complete our standard checks.’
Us: ‘Because the address is wrong.’
A&L: ‘Yes.’
Us: ‘Because Alliance & Leicester changed it and then wrote to a family living half a mile from us.’
A&L: ‘It does seem a computer error has occurred somewhere.’
Us: ‘But now that we’ve solved a problem entirely of Alliance & Leicester's own making. . ?’
A&L: ‘Well, we’re most grateful to you for pointing out what’s happened.’
Us: ‘So. . .? What now?'
A&L: ‘I’m sorry but the applications team, obviously I can't speak for them, I mean I've let the team know. About the mistake. But well, the thing is, I’m really sorry but Alliance & Leicester has to be mindful of anti-money laundering provisions.’
Us: ‘So Alliance & Leicester suspects us of being money launderers then?’
A&L: ‘Oh no. No. What I’m saying is, if you’ll just go ahead and provide the documentation we require, the signatures. . . I mean I do appreciate your point and we’re most grateful to you for bringing this to our attention. This, er, error at our end of things.'
Us: ‘So basically, Alliance & Leicester is saying to us, first we re-wrote the information you gave us, then we wrote to you at the wrong address, and now that we've done all that to you, you're going to have to prove to us that you're not money launderers.'
A&L: ‘I really am sorry. But the applications team, they’re going to need the materials they’ve asked for. Or. . . Or you could just let this application lapse. Try again in a few weeks’ time.’
We thanked the A&L representative – incidentally, there’s no complaint where he’s concerned: he was trying to do his job, and was courteous and apologetic throughout.
We decided not to proceed with the application because we’ve no faith at all that Alliance & Leicester won’t start sending letters to us at the correct address but with our names now changed to Mr and Mrs Tony Soprano.
Instead, we applied online for Santander’s Cash ISA – same terms, and same company, but presumably a different operation.
Apparently not.
Santander hasn’t even emailed an acknowledgment, still less sent us anything in writing. From which we conclude that Santander’s applications team taps into a shared database with A&L’s application team, and that there’s a huge red question mark over anything with our name on it, whether we’re appearing in that file as Mr & Mrs Smith at an address we don’t live at and never have, or Mr & Mrs Soprano at the address that we actually do.
Anyway.
In case anyone from Alliance & Leicester, or Bank Santander, happens to be reading this: thank you for the way you have handled our applications and our prospective business.
We may possibly get in touch again with a view to opening Cash ISAs but so as to preclude any chance of your applications teams suffering from muddles and delusions incapable of remedy through the exercise of elementary commonsense, please be assured that next time around we will -- promise! -- come clean and provide our real names and, of course, our real address, as follows:
Mr & Mrs James Hoffa, Teamsters’ Union, Hoboken, New Jersey, Renfrewshire.
And by the way:
My wife's mother’s maiden name is Capone, and my mother's maiden name, Dillinger.
EDIT NOTE: The topic title originally included a word that rhymes with raffia.
MSE's computer has decided the word is offensive, so has automatically substituted lots of exclamation marks.
This kind of censorship, though raving bonkers, is probably acceptable here, seeing as how the !!!!! Alliance & Leicester would seem to be as big a !!!!!! bunch of complete and utter !!!!!!! !!!!!! as the !!!!! financial services industry has yet to !!!!! throw up.
A long post. If you wish to read it, then sitting down with a cup of coffee or something alcoholic may be advisable.
Also: if you have £1 million of ill-gotten gains which you need to launder, please pm me immediately: Mrs P and I are members of The M@fia. Just ask the Alliance & Leicester if you're unsure.
To begin:
Seven years ago, a builder purchased a very large but decrepit “gentleman’s residence” called The Larches. The Larches stands in two acres of its own grounds. The grounds front onto Meadow Road. A mixture of properties is ranged along the length of Meadow Road: detached and semi detached houses, bungalows, terraced cottages with build dates from the 1830s to the 1980s.
Meadow Road runs through a semi-rural city suburb. The suburb has evolved from a traditional English village. The village gives its name to the suburb. For the purposes of this post, let’s call the suburb: Greenville. Again, for the purposes of this post, let’s say Greenville is in Berkshire.
The Larches is not untypical of large, Victorian properties: it has never had a street number. Also, not untypically -- because it was originally constructed before the street outside it was formally named ‘Meadow Road’ -- its address was always simple and straightforward:
The Larches, Greenville, Berkshire.
The builder converted The Larches, Greenville, Berkshire into eight apartments. Six years ago, my wife and I purchased and moved into number 4. Where we’ve happily been ever since:
4, The Larches, Meadow Road, Greenville, Berkshire + Postcode.
As the terms of our current Cash ISAs (we have one apiece) are coming to an end and reverting to a fraction of a percentage interest, we decided to open a 2010-2011 ISA with another provider and transfer in our current ISA holdings. No problem. Alliance & Leicester allows exactly that.
We filled in the online application form with all the required details. The application form also asked for our postcode. We provided that, too. The form came up with a list of all eight apartments at The Larches, numbered 1 to 8. So we clicked on 4, The Larches. Because that, er, is where we live.
The form now represented our address in presumably the way that this address is rendered on whatever standard postcode database UK companies use: 4, The Larches, Greenville, Berkshire, Postcode.
However.
The online form failed entirely to reconcile its own data with its own address format. It placed the number 4 into the little box denoting house name / house number. And it placed The Larches into the little box denoting the street address.
But The Larches is not a street. It's a building. Duh.
We therefore corrected this mispresentation by placing the number 4 and the building's name in the topmost box of the address list. And we then inserted Meadow Road into the street box. All done. All now accurate.
Alliance & Leicester duly acknowledged our online applications by email. Then, five days later, my wife and I received a letter apiece in respect of same. The letters said Alliance & Leicester had undertaken its usual security checks but on this occasion had been unable to complete these checks on the basis of the information provided.
Accordingly, Alliance & Leicester required us to obtain photocopies of a variety of original documents. Each photocopy would have to be certified by a third party of reputable standing. That third party would also have to fill in a form testifying to who they were and the truthfulness of their certification. All these signed, dated and certified materials must be submitted to Alliance & Leicester before it could proceed further.
Now. . .
Never in all the years that we have held savings accounts, ISAs, insurances etc etc with different providers have we ever been required to indulge in this kind of certified photocopy rigmarole. Nor does anyone of our acquaintance fall into the category so esteemed by Alliance & Leicester – well, our doctor and sub-postmaster do, but why should we need to involve either in our private financial affairs? What does it have to do with them?
A mystery. We have lived at 4, The Larches for five years. We are on the Electoral Roll. Alliance & Leicester's online form asked for our National Insurance numbers, our landline phone number, our bank account details, our bank name and address, our date and place of birth in the UK. . . and our mother’s maiden names.
We provided all that. So just what kind of paranoid Orwellian State are we living in that Alliance & Leicester deems all that specific, on-record and easily checkable information to be inadequate?
Explanation dawned belatedly. Only when we looked at the address to which Alliance & Leicester had sent its letters did it become obvious:
Mr John Smith, Mrs Jane Smith, The Larches, 4, Meadow Road, Greenville, Berks postcode.
Only thanks to the postie’s usual miracle of delivery had we ever received the correspondence at all.
We immediately rang A&L. The conversation went as follows:
Us: ‘Hi. You’ve sent us a letter saying you can’t process our ISA application because you’ve been unable to complete your security checks. Why is that?’
A&L: ‘Let’s have a look at the file. Right. Sorry about this, Mr Smith, Mrs Smith, but we’re obliged to conduct anti-fraud checks – we have to abide by money-laundering legislation.’
Us: ‘We appreciate that. But why is it that despite all the information we’ve given you, you’re telling us it’s not sufficient?’
A&L: ‘I’m sorry. But you’ll understand, Alliance & Leicester has to take all precautions.’
Us: ‘And would an elementary precaution be to check the name of the app,licant against the address of the applicant?’
A&L: ‘Well yes. Of course.’
Us: ‘So when Alliance & Leicester checked 4, Meadow Road, Greenville against our names, it discovered that a family of a completely different name lived there?’
A&L: ‘Well the team who deal with applications, I can’t speak for what they do exactly.’
Us: ‘But reconciling a name to an address, that’s just a basic thing, surely? As in: do Mr and Mrs John Smith live at 4, Meadow Road, Greenville or not?’
A&L: ‘Yes.’
Us: ‘But we don’t live at 4 Meadow Road. We never have. And we never told your company that we did. Alliance & Leicester has taken the information we gave it, rewritten it, and then sent out two letters to an address that only Alliance & Leicester, and no-one else, thinks we live at.’
A&L: ‘Pardon?’
Us: ‘We live at 4 The Larches, Meadow Road, Greenville. Alliance & Leicester has changed that to The Larches, 4 Meadow Road, Greenville. Having changed it, Alliance & Leicester has then -- presumably -- checked the Electoral Roll and discovered there's no Mr & Mrs Smith at 4 Meadow Road at all.'
A&L: ‘Ah. . . Please hold.’
So we hold. And hold. And hold. And then:
A&L: ‘Please accept my apologies for any inconvenience caused. I’ve notified the people dealing with your application about this.’
Us: ‘So?’
A&L: ‘I’m sorry – so?’
Us: ‘So having corrected its own mistake, Alliance & Leicester can now go ahead with all its usual checks and drop this requirement to get documents photo-copied and signed and some Lord of The Manor or other to read everything through and also sign his name to the paperwork. Not necessary, is it? You've got more than enough verifiable information.’
A&L: ‘Er, well. . . You see, we’ve not been able to complete our standard checks.’
Us: ‘Because the address is wrong.’
A&L: ‘Yes.’
Us: ‘Because Alliance & Leicester changed it and then wrote to a family living half a mile from us.’
A&L: ‘It does seem a computer error has occurred somewhere.’
Us: ‘But now that we’ve solved a problem entirely of Alliance & Leicester's own making. . ?’
A&L: ‘Well, we’re most grateful to you for pointing out what’s happened.’
Us: ‘So. . .? What now?'
A&L: ‘I’m sorry but the applications team, obviously I can't speak for them, I mean I've let the team know. About the mistake. But well, the thing is, I’m really sorry but Alliance & Leicester has to be mindful of anti-money laundering provisions.’
Us: ‘So Alliance & Leicester suspects us of being money launderers then?’
A&L: ‘Oh no. No. What I’m saying is, if you’ll just go ahead and provide the documentation we require, the signatures. . . I mean I do appreciate your point and we’re most grateful to you for bringing this to our attention. This, er, error at our end of things.'
Us: ‘So basically, Alliance & Leicester is saying to us, first we re-wrote the information you gave us, then we wrote to you at the wrong address, and now that we've done all that to you, you're going to have to prove to us that you're not money launderers.'
A&L: ‘I really am sorry. But the applications team, they’re going to need the materials they’ve asked for. Or. . . Or you could just let this application lapse. Try again in a few weeks’ time.’
We thanked the A&L representative – incidentally, there’s no complaint where he’s concerned: he was trying to do his job, and was courteous and apologetic throughout.
We decided not to proceed with the application because we’ve no faith at all that Alliance & Leicester won’t start sending letters to us at the correct address but with our names now changed to Mr and Mrs Tony Soprano.
Instead, we applied online for Santander’s Cash ISA – same terms, and same company, but presumably a different operation.
Apparently not.
Santander hasn’t even emailed an acknowledgment, still less sent us anything in writing. From which we conclude that Santander’s applications team taps into a shared database with A&L’s application team, and that there’s a huge red question mark over anything with our name on it, whether we’re appearing in that file as Mr & Mrs Smith at an address we don’t live at and never have, or Mr & Mrs Soprano at the address that we actually do.
Anyway.
In case anyone from Alliance & Leicester, or Bank Santander, happens to be reading this: thank you for the way you have handled our applications and our prospective business.
We may possibly get in touch again with a view to opening Cash ISAs but so as to preclude any chance of your applications teams suffering from muddles and delusions incapable of remedy through the exercise of elementary commonsense, please be assured that next time around we will -- promise! -- come clean and provide our real names and, of course, our real address, as follows:
Mr & Mrs James Hoffa, Teamsters’ Union, Hoboken, New Jersey, Renfrewshire.
And by the way:
My wife's mother’s maiden name is Capone, and my mother's maiden name, Dillinger.
EDIT NOTE: The topic title originally included a word that rhymes with raffia.
MSE's computer has decided the word is offensive, so has automatically substituted lots of exclamation marks.
This kind of censorship, though raving bonkers, is probably acceptable here, seeing as how the !!!!! Alliance & Leicester would seem to be as big a !!!!!! bunch of complete and utter !!!!!!! !!!!!! as the !!!!! financial services industry has yet to !!!!! throw up.
0
Comments
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Thank you, an entertaining read, and one that will ensure that I will never go anywhere near A&L or Santander with my hard-earned cash ... unless I need it laundering of course !
0 -
From what I can gather is that for some reason your not appearing on the identity verification systems I have to verify clients ID at my work a financial institution for the same reasons. We use experian the credit reference company to run these checks and at times for varying reasons these checks can fail.unfortunatly this is most likely out of A&L and santanders control so if your not happy providing certified copys of your ID then another option would be to visit their branches with the originals0
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Hi Eranou:
Thanks for that.
We're not appearing on any identity verification system of any kind that might be used by Alliance & Leicester because Alliance & Leicester has changed our address.
No electoral roll check. No credit history. No National Insurance record. In fact, no ID record at all relating to us at our address can or does relate to people we don't know living at the other address dreamt up by Alliance & Leicester.
In light of which, Alliance & Leicester is saying to us: we're obliged to you for pointing out our mistake and we have now set the record straight.
However, we're going to continue to treat your two applications on the basis of a suspicious name / address mismatch -- which our own incompetence caused -- and we're going to continue to require you to satisfy all the security questions which that ridiculous mismatch provoked.
Of course we appreciate that, in view of the wealth of detailed information already received from you, our further questions and requests for photocopied documents, signatures and third-party testimonials are not in the slightest way necessary. We can confirm your identity in a very, very short time. But. But. . .
We're not going to.
Instead, we require you to inconvenience yourselves and drag other people into your own private financial affairs because, well, we are the Alliance & Leicester.
Which means: we really, truly, genuinely. . . couldn't care less.0 -
Please edit the bad language out of your post.Gone ... or have I?0
-
I dont think the problem lies with A&L it also happend with santander if A&L got your address wrong this should not have had any effect with the application to santander
as you say that when you first entered the postcode an apartment number the address appeared in this manor.
I would try test applying for things on other webisites but not buying anything just to see how it shows on other systems.
Also checking with the post office might give you an idea of how you show on the database0 -
-
I dont think the problem lies with A&L it also happend with santander if A&L got your address wrong this should not have had any effect with the application to santander
as you say that when you first entered the postcode an apartment number the address appeared in this manor.
I would try test applying for things on other webisites but not buying anything just to see how it shows on other systems.
Also checking with the post office might give you an idea of how you show on the database
Eranou: we've lived at this address for five years and in that time have changed banks, insurances, savings accounts and what-have-you without a single query over our address.
Every major financial change requiring the vetting of our identities has gone through without a hitch. Or stipulation that a Knight of The Realm must attach his passport photograph to our private, personal, paperwork.
This time it hasn't because Alliance & Leicester is to customer service what an elephant is to ballet dancing and its competence at IT almost, but not quite, on a level with my cat's (who is also presumably, like us, living half a mile away at a location of Alliance & Leicester's choosing.)
As to Santander, I had assumed its 'applications team' shared the same applications database as the dim-wits (hope that description doesn't get censored) at Alliance & Leicester.
If you're now surmising that Santander doesn't, then all I can do is refer to other posts by other MSErs elsewhere on this forum testifying to their personal experience of the blazing incompetence of Santander.
In which case, the reason it hasn't even acknowledged by email our detailed online applications is because, like Alliance & Leicester, Santander couldn't care less, either. . .
0 -
Please edit the bad language out of your post.
Oi!!! You and durham_girl: you !!!! looking at !!!!! me? Eh? Eh?* This has been a customer service announcement on behalf of the Alliance & Leicester Bank/ Thing / Expensively Failed Building Society as well as Some Bank We Needed From Barcelona To Bail Us Out.
Any communications to us should be addressed to a place where neither us nor the Barcelona people have lived nor ever will live but hey, we think it's fun, anyway. 0 -
EDIT NOTE: The topic title originally included a word that rhymes with raffia.
MSE's computer has decided the word is offensive, so has automatically substituted lots of exclamation marks.
This kind of censorship, though raving bonkers, is probably acceptable here, seeing as how the !!!!! Alliance & Leicester would seem to be as big a !!!!!! bunch of complete and utter !!!!!!! !!!!!! as the !!!!! financial services industry has yet to !!!!! throw up.
Hi, there is a reason that the software auto-censors the 'M' word, it's to stop spammers who went through a spate of coming on here and posting about google and the 'M' word and clogging up the boards with irrelevant rubbish - they seemed to get the message and come back far less frequently now and create less work for the unpaid volunters who are board guides here.0
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