The Great 'Get Paid To Generate Energy' Hunt

John_Smallholder

Great thread - maybe I can add a bit to the debate about the money saving aspects? I write for Home Farmer magazine, and did them a piece about FITs last month. I'm also seriously considering a 5kW wind turbine, so I've had the survey and all the blurb from the sales reps. Here's my take on how to work out if it's worthwhile (the principle works the same for solar PV, but the FIT numbers are different).

1 Work out what you think you'll generate! That's crucial; I reckon you need to be in a site with a minimum 5.5mS windspeed average. Round where I live, that's above 300m above sea level, on a clear site. There's a govt website that is based on measured windspeed per 1km grid square for the whole UK, which gives you a VERY rough idea, no more.
2 Get a price for a turbine installation. £26k seems average for a 5kW turbine. Totally outrageous, for a generator on a stick, but not there's enough competition (yet). That's why you need a very high windspeed too.
3 Estimate interest costs on that. If it's your money in the bank, you 'lose' interest by spending that money; a mortgage or loan, you pay interest. Say 5%.
4 Work out the FIT payment - generated power (eg 13000 kWh x 26.7p £3471 per year).
5 Work out what you'll save from using some of your 'free' electricity. Sadly, it's not much, unless you're an extraordinarily heavy user. Typically, that is using UK average consumption figs, about £300 per year.
6 Work out what you'll earn from 'exporting' at the 3p tariff - again not much, typically £300 per year.
7 Use all of that total income to pay down your loan / pay back your capital, plus interest, plus the £300+ or so 'maintenance' that you'll be charged to keep the turbine guarantee valid for 5 years.
8 Every year the interest gets a bit less as you pay off part of the loan / pay back your capital, so repeat until you've paid it all off.
9 After n years, you've paid off the whole capital amount and there's no further interest, so just maintenance costs from then on.

For my own installation, 'n years' would be eight years before I reached 'pay back'. Obviously it's easier to spreadsheet this lot, but you could work it out with a calculator in half an hour, and if you're spending such a huge sum it's time well spent. The rather good Energy Saving Trust calculator comes up with the same figure of eight years for my numbers, but it's a bit opaque (to me, anyway) as to how it's working it out.

Eight years is a long time to get your money back. Will the turbine still work (guarantee is five years)? Will the maintenance charge go up? If it's about green credentials, perhaps you don't mind, but as this is a money saving forum, perhaps you do.

Oddly, the salespeople never tell you any of this. They say 'look how much you'll get from the FIT'. The anti-turbine lobby latch onto this approach too, and assume everyone's doing it to get rich.

I wish.

Cardew

simbag wrote: »

Therefore, I don't want to find in a couple of years prices have plummeted and efficiency has gone up. But then, does the fact the FITS will also go down counteract the initial saving??

For new retrofit PV installations the FIT remains at 41.3p* to 31 March 2012 when it drops to 37.8p. See

http://www.decc.gov.uk/en/content/cms/news/pn10_010/pn10_010.aspx

So we have the best part of 2 years to see what happens to installation prices once the initial 'frenzy' has died down and we get some real competition amongst installers.

* As 41.3p is index linked, I wonder if the increased price will apply to installations fitted after April 2011. Indeed it did occur to me that if we ever have(like last year) 'negative inflation' could the 41.3p reduce;)

P.S.
There is of course no guarantee that future Goverments would retain the scale of FITs for new installations if there was a real breakthrough in technology and prices of panels plummeted.

rfburke

I don't see anyone suggesting David MacKays excellent (and Free) book Sustainable Energy - Without the hot air www.withouthotair.com
This book is a no nonsence examination of renewable energy and explains power consumption and realistic targets for micro generation. I suggest anyone who has questions about mico generation or even national renewable generation read this.

jondaro

edenusk wrote: »

There is a way of overcoming the initial high cost of a solar PV system and that is by leasing one. There are one or two companies now doing this and it seems to stack up extremely well.






Big fan of renewables but (currently) thwarted beyond belief!

Jondaro

[/QUOTE]


Now there's the type of ingenuity and forward thinking needed to begin to make things move forward!
Could you signpost them or pm me with details if this would be deemed advertising?

Big fan of renewables but (currently) thwarted beyond belief!

Jondaro

Global_D

As an architect I can thoroughly (and without prejudice or personal gain) recommend a company called "Microgeneration" who can advise, design and install all manner of renewable technologies on both a domestic and commercial scale.

https://www.microgeneration.com

You won't get any cowboys with this lot, just a very professional bunch who are passionate about renewables!

skelly01

Edenusk - It would be good if you could let me know of these leasing companies too as it is purely the cost that is stopping me installing PV. I am in Scotland

denisiw

Bungle1976 wrote: »

I did have a couple of other considerations, for around the same cost I could have swapped my hideously inefficient back boiler for a modern condensing one. But British Gas reckoned the payback for that would have been 14 years based on my useage (not including the much higher maintenance costs for a condensing boiler, there isn't much to fail on my old Baxi Bermuda!).

I replaced my 14 year-old condensing boiler with a new one a year ago. I've just had it serviced. All that amounted to was connecting a gas analyser to a take-off point on the flue to measure the emissions. It was OK and showed that it was running at 98.5% efficiency.

As it was the first service and is required for the second year of the guarantee to be operational, I thought it best to be carried out by a local company, it cost me £75 (it's the same price irrespective of the type of boiler) it took him a quarter of an hour! Next year I'll have the same thing done by the same chap privately at a third of the price.

So I have to disagree with you regarding maintenance costs and as for running costs I expect you'll be lucky to be running at 75%. Have a look here to check: http://www.boilers.org.uk/

Denis

Streethawk_2

rfburke wrote: »

I don't see anyone suggesting David MacKays excellent (and Free) book Sustainable Energy - Without the hot air
This book is a no nonsence examination of renewable energy and explains power consumption and realistic targets for micro generation. I suggest anyone who has questions about mico generation or even national renewable generation read this.

this is in my library, so I'll go get it out at the weekend. Many thanks
(no one else go get it from my library! not telling you where, just in case!!!)

BTW - how did you post this with a link? I got told I couldn't (although in your quote) and had to remove it. Are you admin?

noncom_2

I think you have to have a certain number of posts on the site before you can post links. It's a measure designed to reduce spam.

Cardew

denisiw wrote: »

I replaced my 14 year-old condensing boiler with a new one a year ago. I've just had it serviced. All that amounted to was connecting a gas analyser to a take-off point on the flue to measure the emissions. It was OK and showed that it was running at 98.5% efficiency.

As it was the first service and is required for the second year of the guarantee to be operational, I thought it best to be carried out by a local company, it cost me £75 (it's the same price irrespective of the type of boiler) it took him a quarter of an hour! Next year I'll have the same thing done by the same chap privately at a third of the price.

So I have to disagree with you regarding maintenance costs and as for running costs I expect you'll be lucky to be running at 75%. Have a look here to check: http://www.boilers.org.uk/

Denis

You replaced a 14 year old 'condensing' boiler??? As far as I am aware the first condensing boilers were introduced about 5 years ago.

Secondly the link you have given is simply the SEDBUK tables and the highest efficiency gas boilers listed only have an efficiency of 91.5% - so I don't know where you get 98.5% efficiency for your boiler?

It is also pertinent to point out that it is widely held view that the theoretical efficiency of condensing boilers is rarely achieved in 'real' conditions in households.

So what are the savings of modern boilers over the older non-condensing variety? The average household bill for gas is around £600. So the difference between a boiler achieving 90% and a 20+ year old boiler @ 65% might be as high as £150 in theory. In practice probably a lot less.
In fact the RoyalInstitution of Chartered Surveyors stated recently :

The average cost of installing one of these modern boilers is £1,720, but saves on average just £95 off people's gas bills." See:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/ukne...erts-warn.html

Next reliability, there is masses of evidence that modern condensing boilers, stuffed with electronics, are nowhere near as reliable as the older non condensing variety.

This quote from The Guardian is typical:

But critics argue the switchover is unlikely to be plain sailing. The new systems cost upwards of £2,500 to buy and install - £500 more on average than conventional boilers. And if the many letters from Jobs & Money readers and heating engineers are anything to go by, the boilers come with a hidden surcharge, so high that it can wipe out all the gains for the homeowner and the environment.
Critics argue that condenser boilers malfunction easily and can cost hundreds of pounds a year to maintain. Many survive only half as long as their traditional counterparts. They are technically complex, with many more things that can go wrong than traditional boilers. It can add up to nightmarish bills.
One major independent firm of plumbers said that over the past three to four years it has made thousands of call-outs to mend condensing boilers, and that the greenhouse gas emissions from its vans were probably greater than the savings made by the shift to eco-conscious boilers.

Plumbers/gas fitters, not surprisingly, have no training in electronics and if the diagnostics say that a Printed Circuit Board requires changing - it is changed - often at the cost of £hundreds.

There are masses of threads on this subject in the Gas and Electricity forum.