The Great 'Get Paid To Generate Energy' Hunt

Streethawk_2

So, I went off looking for the finance and leasing deals for PV and found no end of USA schemes referred to by GB forums etc, but very little UK info. I guess it's something else we're slow off the mark about.

I did have a look at the Shade Greener site yesterday and was impressed by their claims and a little disappointed that they only cover a small geographic area. I left them a note about expansion, franchising etc and we'll see if they get back to me.

If not, they may well find themselves with some competitiion as it's an interesting model that I may have to investigate further! Anyone else interested?

ChrisJD

I am seriously considering solar PV, but think the panel performance "guarantee" can have a few more drawbacks than is generally being realised. All assuming the manufacturer is still trading.

The small print generally requires the claimant firstly to pay somebody to climb on the roof with a test meter to demonstrate the panel is underperforming. Some manufacturers then have the option of supplying a replacement panel (no labour costs included), or making a payment, based on the initial purchase price, discounted heavily for the number of years it has been in use. 20 years down the line, this will not amount to much.

So far, no financial model I have seen includes any maintenance costs. I have not yet seen any inverter with a 25 year warranty. How many of us have experienced any piece of consumer elecronics lasting that long? Our ordinary electricity meter is required to be replaced pretty regularly, by our power supplier, how long will they let us run our own meter before they make us replace it? One of my quotations includes an offer to perform (at undisclosed cost) an annual clean and security inspection. This may well be money-grabbing, but, depending upon your local bird life, and volcanic ash concentration, some cleaning will have to be paid for.

zantos

I have just had a 2.6Kw PV system fitted to my roof which is slightly off south - a little SSE. It is merrily generating electricity and I am getting my wife to do the washing in the day rather than at night to use this "free" electricity. Obviously I "profit" more by using the electricity rather than exporting it! I took my 25% cash from my pension to fund the project, Why? because the increased pension I would have received would be taxed at 20% whereas the tax free lump sum obviously isn't.
To the best of my knowledge FITs are supposed to be index linked so the figures should keep up with "the cost of living" during their 25 year pay back time.
I agree with the figures for electricity used by the various electrical devices BUT remember the PV panels are generating throughout the day and therefore still returning 41p per unit even when say a kettle or washing machine isn't actually using the electricity, so you may be a Kw or two short during a washing cycle BUT this is made up throughout the day by what you generate - although in my case I'm even thinking of taking in washing (not really).
Having seen my output over the last couple of weeks I can say I consider I have made the right choice - why should I have taken money in a pension only to be taxed on it rather than "investing" it in PV and getting a return?

Mcfi5dhc

ChrisJD wrote: »

I am seriously considering solar PV, but think the panel performance "guarantee" can have a few more drawbacks than is generally being realised. All assuming the manufacturer is still trading.

Hi - I have solar PV on my house, it is now approaching two years old. Although I have not cleaned my panels (nor do I plan to in the next year or so) they still hit peak performance often. This is not to say that people who clean them are wasting their time - I just think the rain we regularly get, cleans mine sufficiently.

No doubt soon loads of solar panel cleaning companies will spring up!

I've not seen any warranties for invertors specifically, but compared to the panels, it probably is the weak link in the whole PV system. It won't be cheap to have one replaced, but if you buy a quality one, it should last 12 years +. Couldn't give you an exact price for replacing one, in all honesty though, I would guess (and this is pure guesswork) £500-£1000 depending on the size/quality of the system, which would wipe out one years FIT payments in theory.

As far as panels failing, if you Google this, you won't find many entries at all - they are generally considered to be fairly fautless. If you did have a problem with one, it would probably fail immediately, not ten years down the line.

Be careful when you buy your system that you do not pay full price for 'B grade' - although they will probably still last a lifetime, they are in essence rejects (though still fully functioning, they may just be scratched for example)

Finally, the manufactors out there that are big include Sharp, Sanyo, BP, Toshiba, plus dozens of others - slim chance any of those will go bust anytime soon

Cardew

ChrisJD wrote: »

So far, no financial model I have seen includes any maintenance costs. I have not yet seen any inverter with a 25 year warranty. How many of us have experienced any piece of consumer elecronics lasting that long? Our ordinary electricity meter is required to be replaced pretty regularly, by our power supplier, how long will they let us run our own meter before they make us replace it? One of my quotations includes an offer to perform (at undisclosed cost) an annual clean and security inspection. This may well be money-grabbing, but, depending upon your local bird life, and volcanic ash concentration, some cleaning will have to be paid for.

This is something I have raised repeatedly - see post #74 on this thread(especially the quote) and the other threads on PV.

It is difficult to quantify this expenditure and naturally the manufacturers/installers brush over these aspects.

One poster here who has PV cleans his twice a year, another states rain keeps them clean. One thing for certain is that the mess from pigeons that seem to live on my roof won't be easily removed.

Bungle1976

Cardew wrote: »

1. Firstly you cannot attempt to justify solar thermal for everyne on the strength of your 1970's back boiler.

I didn't, I am pretty sure I made it clear in all the posts that the figures would be different for different peoples circumstances.

Cardew wrote: »

2. Secondly you cannot argue that 13.47kWh of gas costs approx £1. You presumably are taking the Tier 1 kWh price of gas. The average price of gas taking Tier1 and Tier 2prices is around 3p for a kWh so your 13.47kWh of gas will cost approx 40p not the £1 on which you base your calculations.

Rather depends on how much gas you use (i.e. how far into Tier 2 you go) as to what the average cost comes out to.

Cardew wrote: »

3. It matters not that your tank was uninsulated. If you waste heat from the water heated by gas, then you will waste heat from water heated by solar. You can't have it both ways!!!

Sort of, I included that information really on the basis of showing how old it was and that it needed replacing.

Cardew wrote: »

4. What is the relevance of the cost of fitting a a new combi boiler? You will need one for CH and hot water in the winter.; and you seem to forget that a combi does not need a HW tank - insulated or not!;)

At what point did I mention a combi boiler? I mentioned a condensing boiler, not a combi. As mentioned elsewhere at some point I want to put in a woodburning stove with backboiler, can't do that without a hot water tank. The relevance of the boiler was that I wanted to bring down my fuel bills, I looked at two routes, solar or a new boiler.

Cardew wrote: »

5. You have ignored the cost of running your pump on daytime electricity rates and powering the electronics

OK, I have ignored the cost of running the pumps (I can work that out as I have the hours it has run and the power rating) and I don't have a split tariff (which makes the daytime rates slightly lower than they would be). I'll come back with that later. The cost or running the electronics would be so small I would struggle to measure it.

But then I also didn't include some of the positive side of the equation either.

Also of course I have now got a much better insulated tank which will save money in the winter when I heat it with gas.

The £135 saving was the first year, as gas prices rise the saving each year will increase. You might say I am betting on the price of gas, well lets be honest would you bet on it going down over the next few years? This is a chance I am willing to take.

I'll say it again, it won't make sense for everyone, but I am happy with my decision. Yes, there may well have been other things I could do which will pay back quicker (the house already had what I see as the quick wins i.e. cavity wall insulation, more than sufficient loft insulation and double glazing when I bought it), the solar is just one part.

Cardew

Streethawk wrote: »

So, I went off looking for the finance and leasing deals for PV and found no end of USA schemes referred to by GB forums etc, but very little UK info. I guess it's something else we're slow off the mark about.

I did have a look at the Shade Greener site yesterday and was impressed by their claims and a little disappointed that they only cover a small geographic area. I left them a note about expansion, franchising etc and we'll see if they get back to me.

If not, they may well find themselves with some competitiion as it's an interesting model that I may have to investigate further! Anyone else interested?

The advantage of the 'shade greener' scheme is that it is painless for the house owner.

On the other hand the rewards are not great. I doubt if many people will be able to use more than 1,000 to 1,500kWh pa of the output - probably less if they are out at work all day. So an income of £100 to £150 a year.

I wonder if Shade Greener will clean the panels;)

jsrees

I'm in the process of getting PV panels installed with an interest-free loan from Severn-Wye Energy Agency. This was a pilot scheme being run in a handful of council areas (mine is Stroud, Glos) and there was a maximum of 50 applicants allotted for the financial year just ended. You could choose your repayment time (up to 25 years), and borrow 100% of the costs up to £10k. I don't know what if anything is available this year. So it might be worth looking for SWEA or possibly via the Energy Saving Trust website.

Cardew

Bungle1976 wrote: »

But then I also didn't include some of the positive side of the equation either.

Also of course I have now got a much better insulated tank which will save money in the winter when I heat it with gas.

The £135 saving was the first year, as gas prices rise the saving each year will increase. You might say I am betting on the price of gas, well lets be honest would you bet on it going down over the next few years? This is a chance I am willing to take.

"I looked at two routes, solar or a new boiler."

I really cannot understand your line of thinking here. Solar will just provide Hot Water and for the average user the 1,000kWh a solar system provides is 5% of annual gas usage. So you spent £3,500 on Solar and keep your highly inefficient back boiler for your heating and hot water in the winter.

We could go round and round the houses on this matter. Like you excluded the cost of your new tank from the capital cost reducing it to £3,100 but are now claiming it as an advantage.

The bottom line is that your system is not likely to produce more than 1,000kWh and if you can juggle figures and conclude that with gas heating, each kWh saved is worth 13.5p(£135 pa) then so be it.

However for most people, the value of saving 1000kWh gas is less than £30 with a highly efficient boiler to £50 with an old G rated boiler.

That said, and even accepting your figures, how many people would invest £3,500 to buy a system for an anual income of £135; when the alternative is invest that capital and get compounded interest.

Also it is inevitable that your system, pump/electronics etc will require replacement and at some period in the future will be scrapped.

Doc_N

simbag wrote: »

I was under the impression that the FITS were paid through the energy companies, but funded by the government?

Funded by the government, but paid for by other electricity consumers:

Where does the money come from?

It comes out of the pockets of the supply companies because they are really nice guys!

No seriously... The suppliers pass on the cost of the Tariffs scheme to all their electricity customers.
... so the bottom line is that people who don't install renewable energy generation pay for those who do!