KLM trouble

zaksmum

mikey72 wrote: »

How do you get £5k?
Ryanair is in Ireland, limit of 2000 euro in small claims.
(and you would have to go there, probably by a ryanair flight)
Dutch small calims is 5000 euro though (and you've probably have to go by KLM)
Then they'd all appeal, (subject to the dutch limit of 1750 euro)

I can't see them appealing. If they don't have a defence how can they?

If they had a duty of care to their passengers and just didn't bother to help them, for whatever reason, the court will have no option but to award costs against them, surely?

My daughter has just now arrived home, having been forced to pay her own train fare from Heathrow, and not having slept in a bed for a week. She is absolutely wiped out, and if there's a defence KLM could come up with to excuse the way they have treated their customers, I'd be very interested to hear it.

mikey72

zaksmum wrote: »

I can't see them appealing. If they don't have a defence how can they?

If they had a duty of care to their passengers and just didn't bother to help them, for whatever reason, the court will have no option but to award costs against them, surely?

My daughter has just now arrived home, having been forced to pay her own train fare from Heathrow, and not having slept in a bed for a week. She is absolutely wiped out, and if there's a defence KLM could come up with to excuse the way they have treated their customers, I'd be very interested to hear it.

I don't know the answer to this.
I really hope eveyone gets whatever they have paid back, but even the auc haven't said this is covered by the eu law.
Cityboy seem to think it is black and white, so as I have asked him, maybe he deals with eu courts or similar, and knows how to pursue KLM in the netherlands.

mikey72 wrote: »

Well from your previous link to the AUC website, they're on the fence too.
Only a "think" and "should"
http://www.auc.org.uk/default.aspx?catid=306&pagetype=90&pageid=6547#two


3. If the airline does not give me assistance when my flight is delayed and I have to pay myself, can I get my money back?
The Regulation does not deal with this situation. But we think that the airline, having failed to honour its obligation under the Regulation at the time of the disruption, should be prepared to reimburse reasonable expenditure on those items listed under “assistance” in the Regulation on sight of receipts.

Pelican_eats_pigeon

mikey72 wrote: »

How do you get £5k?
Ryanair is in Ireland, limit of 2000 euro in small claims.
(and you would have to go there, probably by a ryanair flight)
Dutch small calims is 5000 euro though (and you've probably have to go by KLM)
Then they'd all appeal, (subject to the dutch limit of 1750 euro)

Airlines have shown a marked reluctance to appeal small claims cases that have gone against them for fear of the publicity encouraging further cases. Plus, they know they won't win. Quite often they don't even bother to defend small claims cases.

Since reimbursement has become custom and practice owing to the long-term failure of the airlines to pro-actively provide the care required of them under the Regulations, I don't see that this would form any kind of legal obstacle.

mikey72

Pelican_eats_pigeon wrote: »

Airlines have shown a marked reluctance to appeal small claims cases that have gone against them for fear of the publicity encouraging further cases. Plus, they know they won't win. Quite often they don't even bother to defend small claims cases.

Since reimbursement has become custom and practice owing to the long-term failure of the airlines to pro-actively provide the care required of them under the Regulations, I don't see that this would form any kind of legal obstacle.

I don't keep up with the dutch or irish legal system.
But I'll ask the same question I asked cityboy though, are you a lawyer, or what is your qualification/job. If you're not a UK lawyer, are you qualified in some aspect for european law, or the ECJ, or do you deal with airlines reguarly etc?

Pelican_eats_pigeon

I am not a lawyer but I deal with legal matters at work on a semi-regular basis so am fairly used to combing through legislation and reading case law. My interest in the travel industry is purely personal (I actually prefer hotels to airlines) but overlaps with my work on the odd occasion. I don't wish to be any more specific than that.

mikey72

So, won't be facing the great mass of top level lawyers from Ryanair, KLM etc at the ECJ, over the next ten years then?

Pelican_eats_pigeon

mikey72 wrote: »

So, won't be facing the great mass of top level lawyers from Ryanair, KLM etc at the ECJ, over the next ten years then?

The ECJ has given pretty short shrift to these top level airline lawyers so far. But I don't think it will be necessary for many (if any) of the cases to go that far, to be honest.

I don't feel that whether I'm going to be facing these lawyers is of any relevance, anyway. I only answered your question since I believe in being open about such things as far as is appropriate. I am confident the points I have made are soundly argued and based on clear logic. My posts should be judged on their content rather than on who I am or what I do.

mikey72

You have been offering advice to people on a complex legal matter, over several countries, involving sometimes possibly substantial sums of money, so just trying to understand on what basis you and cityboy are so sure of the outcome.
Especially now as some of the airlines are saying they will still not be accepting the law, (as they have continually said throughout)
The airlines employ a substanstial legal representation, are we would assume would have a basis for stating that, or believe they have scope to find one.

The second they challenge the law, everything will be on hold pending the outcome, and they don't even have to win really, just ensure that they spend less annually on legal costs than they can make by keeping they money in the bank, rather than paying it out.

zaksmum

A couple of years ago we went on holiday with My Travel to Cyprus, a last minute allocated on arrival deal.

We'd been told the flight was 7am when in fact it never had been...it took off at almost 2pm from Manchester. At the end of our holiday, the transfer coach "forgot" to pick us up and the rep ended up paying nearly £100 for a taxi to get us to the airport in time.

We made a claim against them and they vowed not to pay out as they said we weren't out of pocket. We claimed for the hassle and anxiety mainly and won the claim.

We were awarded more than half the holiday costs back, not a large amount but a matter of principle, to stop major travel companies treating people with such disdain.

I sincerely hope that when travellers do make it home, they make themselves a promise to see KLM and others in court!

zaksmum

Cityboy wrote: »

Mikey

The 'several countries' you mention is really neither here nor there since the common denominator is the EU airline passengers are flying with and the EU regulation under which they are legally bound to operate.

The EU regulation has been adopted into law in each EU member state (as well as Switzerland) and therefore passengers can expect the protection contained therein or, absent that from the airline, reimbusement for those reasonable expenses.

Whether the airlines accept the law or not, it is the law and passengers can expect remedy under such law. The airlines can argue all they like that the law wasn't designed for such circumstances but there is no leeway within the wording of the regulation for them to thus argue, it is that clear.

Interestingly, it is these same airlines who are demanding the governments bail them out and 'assist' them in these circumstances. That may well happen but IMO governments may put a rider on any financial assistance granted that airlines in turn face up to their legal responsibilities to passengers.

That's very true. Even airlines have to obey the law just like the rest of us.