sash windows and boxes, which wood?

theGrinch

i have been offered american pine or redwood. any carpenters that are kind enough to offer advice then I would be gratfeul.

bambammy

Try and get a specification of the wood source. Is it slower grown stuff for instance. It will last longer. The slower it's grown, the tighter the rings, the longer it will last.

http://www.woodwindowalliance.com/fileadmin/Specifiers_Guide/12613_WWA_Specifier_Species_01.pdf

leveller2911

Hi Grinch,
I have a small Joinery workshop and make a fair few Boxframe windows.

IMO I wouldn't go for either of the 2 you mentioned.The main reason is because they are less Durable than Hardwoods.The majority of the price you will pay will be for Labour,so a Redwood(Softwood pine) window will last 10-15 max, Douglas Fir a little longer,where as if you go for a good Hardwood they will last 30+years.There are Hardwoods that I would also steer clear of,one is Meranti as this is not very Durable and very soft.Like many things you buy the "Devil is in the Detail" because timber spec is very important.


My preferences will be : Sapele (very stable,durable),Utile (very good,but getting scarce)Iroko(can warp and twist)Brazillian Cedar(very stable,durable but is soft and damage easily) Idigo (cheap n cheerful,not easily machined) All of these would be a better choice than any Redwood or Pine.

I have left out European Oak (most Durable of all)because it costs approx 2.5x the above and Teak is almost double the price of Oak...

Being slower grown doesn't mean it will last longer, timbers like Ash, Maple and Beech are slower growing but not durable....

theGrinch

bambammy wrote: »

Try and get a specification of the wood source. Is it slower grown stuff for instance. It will last longer. The slower it's grown, the tighter the rings, the longer it will last.

http://www.woodwindowalliance.com/fileadmin/Specifiers_Guide/12613_WWA_Specifier_Species_01.pdf

thanks. helpful.

theGrinch

leveller2911 wrote: »

My preferences will be : Sapele (very stable,durable),Utile (very good,but getting scarce)Iroko(can warp and twist)Brazillian Cedar(very stable,durable but is soft and damage easily) Idigo (cheap n cheerful,not easily machined) All of these would be a better choice than any Redwood or Pine.

Being slower grown doesn't mean it will last longer, timbers like Ash, Maple and Beech are slower growing but not durable....

It is certainly good to have input from someone working day in and day out with these woods. Everyone seems to have a favourite!

It is a balance softwood verus hardwood subject to cost. The latter are coming in 30% to 40% more, leaving out oak and teak.

Douglas Fir, Meranti and Sapele have all been mentioned, but the cost is significantly more and is there a justification 15 years versus 30 years?

One joiner said that regardless of soft or hard, if the windows are not maintained they will degrade - only hardwood will be slower. His preference is American Pine, which is more than Redwood but less labour and fewer knots according to him.

At £4,500 its still a big spend!

leveller2911

theGrinch wrote: »

One joiner said that regardless of soft or hard, if the windows are not maintained they will degrade - only hardwood will be slower.

This is very true,I have never understood why people would spend £1,000,s on windows and not maintain them.I haven't made a softwood window in the last 3-4 yrs purely because they don't last and I want my windows to last.Given that I work in a small town reputation is everything.I know people who are having their windows repaired/replaced after only 8 yrs (all softwood).

Out of the 3 you mention Sapele is easily the best, the reason your Joiner may prefer Pine is because Hardwood such as Sapele and Iroko contain Calcium deposits which can blunt the machine tooling more than Softwood.Tooling can be very expensive.



. His preference is American Pine, which is more than Redwood but less labour and fewer knots according to him.

Theres very little if any difference in the Labour costs....

At £4,500 its still a big spend!

What have they quoted for Grinch????? Window specification?

leveller2911

theGrinch wrote: »

It is a balance softwood verus hardwood subject to cost. The latter are coming in 30% to 40% more, leaving out oak and teak.


To give you an idea of timber prices : 3 metre length of 225mm x 50mm Scandanavian Redwood is around £15-00 + VAT .

Sapele/Iroko: 3 metre length of 225mm x 52mm is around £ 30-71 +VAT

As you can see its twice the price of Softwood , but remember the Labour charge (large proportion of the quote ) will remain the same.....

So although the timber price is doubled the quote for the windows shouldn't be 30%-40% more.........

theGrinch

leveller2911 wrote: »

theGrinch wrote: »

To give you an idea of timber prices : 3 metre length of 225mm x 50mm Scandanavian Redwood is around £15-00 + VAT .

Sapele/Iroko: 3 metre length of 225mm x 52mm is around £ 30-71 +VAT

As you can see its twice the price of Softwood , but remember the Labour charge (large proportion of the quote ) will remain the same.....

So although the timber price is doubled the quote for the windows shouldn't be 30%-40% more.........

Hi Leveller, I have sent you a PM with the spec

bambammy

The Redwood can be durable up to 20/30 years if properly maintained.

Every two years, paint them with good quality paint.

I work in a Sash Case Windows manufacturers. That's all they do, manufacture Sash and Case Windows. 80% of the trade customers who buy trade, all work in and around The City Centre of Edinburgh, order Redwood.

theGrinch

bambammy wrote: »

The Redwood can be durable up to 20/30 years if properly maintained.

Every two years, paint them with good quality paint.

Yes. I have heard a couple of people say they will last 30 years plus if maintained.

Have you come across American Pine?

leveller2911

bambammy wrote: »

The Redwood can be durable up to 20/30 years if properly maintained.

Love to know where you get your Redwood from? and grade? Where is the Redwood from? What do you treat them with?

We buy U/J grade and its just not lasting.......15 yrs max if your lucky .....Ive been making them for nearly 25 yrs and the quality of Redwoods have dropped significantly over that time as its cut too early and dried too quickly.


If the windows are decorated correctly by a good decorator they would only need painting every four years at least......Every 2 years sounds too frequent to me, especially if scaffold is required, think of the expense of that every 2 yrs...