Architect fees, is this reasonable?

Alarash

Hello everybody,

I would really appreciate your help with this and please forgive me if its a slightly long post but I just want to give as much detail as I can.

I've bought a 2 bed Victorian semi detatched house that I need to do work to. It needs a top to bottom renovation and replacing a rear (falling apart) conservatory with a new single storey extension 20sqm to make an open plan kitchen/dining/living area.

In addition if I can raise the money, to the side of the property I would like to replace the freestanding garage with a 2 storey extension to have main entrance and integral garage on the ground floor and 3rd bedroom with ensuite upstairs (approx 50sqm).

The builder I have thought to go with recommended me his man for drawings. The chap in question is not a qualified architect, he describes himself as a draftsmen and surveyor, his actual degree is Building Studies. The fees breakdown is as follows:

Drawings (planning and building regs approval) £2300
Building regs £250 (not sure what this is meant to be)
Drawing management fee £400 (not sure what this is meant to be, i think for changes, amendments)
Local Authority fees £500 (planning application and building control(?) fees)
Structural engineer £400-600 (estimate)

This is meant to be a lump sum fee, it will include submitting and checking in on the application with planning dept, making any amendments required by them, by me, or by builders later on; being on the end of the phone to the builder and making site visits if necessary.

The chap is pretty upfront about himself and proposes on doing the survey and initial sketches before taking any payments. He has also offered to show me previous drawings he has made.

Can I ask if this is a reasonable fee? It sounds like a lot but then the first ARB architect I had over was quoting more than double this.

Many thanks,

Rashed

ormus

i would go and look for another house.

biggy123456789

Hello Alarash,

I am an Architectural Technician and provide Architectural Services for this type of work all the time. These fees seem quite high. Not quite sure about some of the fees either!!

Drawings (planning and building regs approval) £2300
Building regs £250 (WHAT IS THIS?? IS IT THE APPLICATION FEE)
Drawing management fee £400 (WHAT DOES THIS COVER??)
Local Authority fees £500 (WHAT DOES THIS FEE COVER??)
Structural engineer £400-600 (estimate) (A BIT STEEP!!)

Based on your wants I would say to produce the drawings, submit to the authorities for approval (additional fees on top), liaise with the planners and building control department to obtain approvals where necessary you would look to pay somewhere in the region of £1850 - £2500 total dependant on the size of extensions. The structural engineer would be dependant on the number of steel beams you may require, foundations if possible and would look at a maximum of £300 + VAT. The planning application fee will be a set £150.00 payable to the local authority and the building control fee will be dependant on the size of extension. The other fee to bear in mind is the Building Inspection fee, this fee will apply after the building inspector has visited you property and inspected the works once construction has commenced.

Hopefull the above helps you a little more. Sorry its quite long winded but again like you mentioned I felt it best to inform you of everyhting you need to know.

Regards

James

Alarash

Thank you James for your helpful reply.

Can I pick your brain (as well as other moneysavingexperts) a little more? Basically about the planning steps/fees to go through? As I understand things, the following steps are required:
1. Initial planning survey to make drawings of the existing building/elevations
2. Drawings for planning permission
3. Drawings for building control/regs - more detailed drawings that the building materials can be specced from.
4. Application fees to the local authority for 2 and 3.
5. Structural engineer fees.
6. Building control/regs fees, I'm not too clear on this, is this paid as Building Control officers check on the site/works?
7. Architect fees for amendments to drawings (maybe included as part of 2 and 3 fees)
8. Site visits by architect as required
Have I got this all wrong? Or missed things out? Basically I'm just looking to educate myself to be able to ask the right sort of questions when looking at a quote and if anything's missing.
Many thanks,
Rashed

PS Would welcome other people's thoughts on the original post and what would be a reasonable quote and its breakdown :-)

Gizmosmum_2

Hi

I'm just going through this myself at the minute. I foolishly fell for what I thought was a good website and someone who talked my language.
I was quoted:

£500 for drawing plans for Planning Permission
£250 for drawing plans for Building Regs
£150 Local authority costs for PP
Apprx £250 for LA costs for BR

If I wanted the guy who was drawing up my plans to liase with the local authority that was extra. I'd had another quote for a similar amount from a local architect but wasn't enthused by his approach so I chose the first guy.

To cut a long story short - I'm going to have to have the plans re-drawn by another architect and will be oblliged to pay at least something for the first set that have been drawn. The original guy was unable to listen to what I wanted or measure and draw the plans accurately!

More to the point, we're lifting our bungalow by a metre and the guy we engaged to draw the plans (who has also built some houses locally) didn't mention checking foundations to see if they were strong enough to take the extra weight. Now I've spent a few hundred quid on drawings that could be completely useless because if the bungalow needs underpinning we can't afford to do that and cover the cost of the loft conversion/extension.

Thanks to some fab advice from other moneysavingexperts I've got Building Regs coming to check the founds tomorrow and I'll know by tomorrow night whether i've completely wasted my money on plans through bad advice in the first place.

The moral of this lengthy post is - if at all possible engage with your local authority, particularly from Building Regs and see if you can't gently twist their arm to give you the same of someone who they like and work with regularly. They aren't supposed to do this but I haven't had a problem getting a name and I know they're comfortable with me using him.

If BR won't give you a name ask them about the guy you're proposing to use - my BR fell about laughing when I mentioned who I was using ...

Good luck

darich

Can't believe you were quoted £2300 and another £400 for drawing management.

That is nothing short of robbery - drawings should be no more than a few hundred.

Also - what is the difference between Local Authority fees of £500 and Building regs for £250??
You also said that the £2300 was for Planning and Building regs approval.

What is the difference between the 3??

Personally I don't think the £300-400 for Engineers calcs is outrageous. Many years of uni, experience, and expertise are being called upon. Engineer must get it right or the building falls down.

The rest of the quote seems like nothing short of theft to me!!

EDIT : reread your post - you don't need to have any particular qualifications to produce the drawings - anyone can do it as long as they know what is required. You also don't need qualifications to produce the calcs. In my local authority the calcs are checked by structurla engineers so mistakes are spotted and corrected. Usually only qualified people submit calcs but it's not something the authority demands.

leekat21

We paid our architect £75 an hour. All of our meetings and and drawings were done in conjunction with our semi detached neighbours as we had to submit a joint application to get permission.
All our invoices detailed the length of each meeting and then should 50% for us and 50% for next door. Drawings were also detailed on time spent on them.
Our architect did all liasing with planning dept (he had a good working relationship with them.)
Whilst it was expensive, it was more than worth it now we have building work underway. No problems with main contractor understanding the drawings, building inspector happy with drawings and that work is being carried out to drawing spec etc.

biggy123456789

Hi Alaresh,

Further to your response I have marked in red my thoughts. I have also added to Darich's post.

If you need anything further PM me.

Regards

Alarash wrote: »

Thank you James for your helpful reply.

Can I pick your brain (as well as other moneysavingexperts) a little more? Basically about the planning steps/fees to go through? As I understand things, the following steps are required:
1. Initial planning survey to make drawings of the existing building/elevations (THIS SHOULD BE DONE AS PART OF THE DRAWINGS AND SO WILL BE INCLUDED IN THE PRICE)
2. Drawings for planning permission (THIS WILL BE REQUIRED IF YOUR PROPOSAL IS A LITTLE UNSURE AS TO WHETHER OR NOT APPROVAL WILL BE MET HENSE 2 PRICES (I DO THE SAME IF I AM 50/50 ABOUT OBTAINING APPROVAL)
3. Drawings for building control/regs - more detailed drawings that the building materials can be specced from. (THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT TO HAVE BEFORE WORK STARTS, YOU COULD INSTEAD SUBMIT A BUILDING NOTICE INSTEAD THIS WILL DECREASE THE ARCHITECTS COST BECAUSE THERE WILL BE NO NEED TO DO ALL THE DETAILS, EVERYTHING WILL BE AGREED ON SITE BETWEEN THE BUILDER AND INSPECTOR)
4. Application fees to the local authority for 2 and 3. (UNFORTUNATELY THERE IS NOTHING YOU CAN DO ABOUT THESE FEES, THEY NEED PAYING SEPERATELY AND THE COUNCIL/LOCAL AUTHORITY SETS THEIR OWN FEES)
5. Structural engineer fees. (THESE WILL BE NEEDED TO APPROVE THE WHOLE JOB WHETHER YOU SUBMIT AN FULL BUILDING CONTROL APPLICATION OR A BUILDING NOTICE, THIS WILL VARY DEPENDING ON ENGINEER USED)
6. Building control/regs fees, I'm not too clear on this, is this paid as Building Control officers check on the site/works? (I ASSUME THIS IS THE INSPECTION FEE AND THIS WILL BE INVOICED AFTER OR SOMETIMES BEFORE FIRST VISIT TO SITE BY THE BUILDING INSPECTOR MADE PAYABLE TO THE LOCAL AUTHORITY)
7. Architect fees for amendments to drawings (maybe included as part of 2 and 3 fees) (THE ONLY AMENDMENTS HE SHOULD BE CHARGING YOU FOR IS IF YOU DECIDE TO CHANGE ANY MAJOR STRUCTURAL PARTS OF THE DRAWING SUCH AS ORIGINALLY WANTING GROUND FLOOR SIDE AND THEN WNAT GROUND FLOOR SIDE AND REAR, THIS SHOULD BE AT AN HOURLY RATE OR AGREED SUM, HE SHOULDN'T CHARGE FOR BUILDING CONTROL AMENDMENTS BUT MAY FOR PLANNING IF THE PLANNERS WANT A DRAMATIC ALTERATION)
8. Site visits by architect as required (WHY DOES THE ARCHITECT NEED TO VISIT SITE? IF YOU EMPLOY A REPUTABLE BUILDER THERE WILL BE NO NEED FOR HIM TO VISIT SITE TO INSPECT. THE ONLY REASON HE SHOULD IS TO TAKE PHOTOS FOR HIS PORTFOLIO AT THE END, UNLESS THERE IS A PROBLEM WITH HIS DRAWING OR SITE CONDITIONS THEN HE MAY NEED TO VISIT BUT THIS SHOULD BE COVERED IN THE DRAWING COST)
Have I got this all wrong? Or missed things out? Basically I'm just looking to educate myself to be able to ask the right sort of questions when looking at a quote and if anything's missing.
Many thanks,
Rashed (HOPEFULLY THIS CLEARS UP YOUR QUESTIONS, IF NOT PM ME AND I WILL SPEAK IN MORE DETAIL IF REQUIRED)

PS Would welcome other people's thoughts on the original post and what would be a reasonable quote and its breakdown :-)

Can't believe you were quoted £2300 and another £400 for drawing management. (AGREE)

That is nothing short of robbery - drawings should be no more than a few hundred. (DISAGREE - DRAWINGS TAKE ALONG TIME TO PRODUCE AND THE ARCHITECT WILL BE PROVIDING A PROFESSIONAL SERVICE TO HIS/HER CLIENT A FEW HUNDRED POUNDS WILL NOT COVER HIS LIABILITY)

Also - what is the difference between Local Authority fees of £500 and Building regs for £250??
You also said that the £2300 was for Planning and Building regs approval.
(THIS DIDN'T MAKE TOO MUCH SENSE EITHER BUT I THINK WE CLEARED THAT UP NOW)
What is the difference between the 3??

Personally I don't think the £300-400 for Engineers calcs is outrageous. Many years of uni, experience, and expertise are being called upon. Engineer must get it right or the building falls down. (IT IS DEPENDANT ON WHAT THE ENGINEER IS CALCULATING, FOR 1-3 STEEL BEAMS THIS IS VERY EXPENSIVE BUT FOR A COMBINATION OF THAT AND A FOUNDATION DESIGN THEN YES THIS WOULD BE IN THE RIGHT BALL PARK)

The rest of the quote seems like nothing short of theft to me!! (??)

EDIT : reread your post - you don't need to have any particular qualifications to produce the drawings - anyone can do it as long as they know what is required. You also don't need qualifications to produce the calcs. In my local authority the calcs are checked by structurla engineers so mistakes are spotted and corrected. Usually only qualified people submit calcs but it's not something the authority demands. (THIS IS CORRECT THAT YOU DONT NEED ANY SPECIFIC QUALIFICATIONS OR EXPERIENCE TO CARRYOUT THIS WORK BUT FOR THE CLIENTS OWN SATISFACTION IT IS RECOMMENDED, IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG AN ARCHITECT OR ARCHITECTURAL TECHNICIAN WILL HAVE EXPERIENCE AND KNOWLEDGE ON HOW TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM OR IF IT IS HIS FAULT FOR NOT CORRECTLY DESIGNING OR MEASURING AT LEAST WILL HAVE THE NECESSARY INSURANCES REQUIRED TO COVER)

darich

biggy123456789 wrote: »

Hi Alaresh,

Further to your response I have marked in red my thoughts. I have also added to Darich's post.

If you need anything further PM me.

Regards




Can't believe you were quoted £2300 and another £400 for drawing management. (AGREE)

That is nothing short of robbery - drawings should be no more than a few hundred. (DISAGREE - DRAWINGS TAKE ALONG TIME TO PRODUCE AND THE ARCHITECT WILL BE PROVIDING A PROFESSIONAL SERVICE TO HIS/HER CLIENT A FEW HUNDRED POUNDS WILL NOT COVER HIS LIABILITY)

Also - what is the difference between Local Authority fees of £500 and Building regs for £250??
You also said that the £2300 was for Planning and Building regs approval.
(THIS DIDN'T MAKE TOO MUCH SENSE EITHER BUT I THINK WE CLEARED THAT UP NOW)
What is the difference between the 3??

Personally I don't think the £300-400 for Engineers calcs is outrageous. Many years of uni, experience, and expertise are being called upon. Engineer must get it right or the building falls down. (IT IS DEPENDANT ON WHAT THE ENGINEER IS CALCULATING, FOR 1-3 STEEL BEAMS THIS IS VERY EXPENSIVE BUT FOR A COMBINATION OF THAT AND A FOUNDATION DESIGN THEN YES THIS WOULD BE IN THE RIGHT BALL PARK)

The rest of the quote seems like nothing short of theft to me!! (??)

EDIT : reread your post - you don't need to have any particular qualifications to produce the drawings - anyone can do it as long as they know what is required. You also don't need qualifications to produce the calcs. In my local authority the calcs are checked by structurla engineers so mistakes are spotted and corrected. Usually only qualified people submit calcs but it's not something the authority demands. (THIS IS CORRECT THAT YOU DONT NEED ANY SPECIFIC QUALIFICATIONS OR EXPERIENCE TO CARRYOUT THIS WORK BUT FOR THE CLIENTS OWN SATISFACTION IT IS RECOMMENDED, IF SOMETHING GOES WRONG AN ARCHITECT OR ARCHITECTURAL TECHNICIAN WILL HAVE EXPERIENCE AND KNOWLEDGE ON HOW TO SOLVE THE PROBLEM OR IF IT IS HIS FAULT FOR NOT CORRECTLY DESIGNING OR MEASURING AT LEAST WILL HAVE THE NECESSARY INSURANCES REQUIRED TO COVER)

Drawings at that price are prohibitivelyt expensive and I would disagree that they take "a long time" to produce.
Many details eg, lintels, insulation, trusses etc are standard. Acad can copy and paste, even hand drawn many details are similar and don't take long to draw.
My brother has done scores of drawings like this and it never took him that long. He did everything from conservatories to loft conversions, dormers, garage conversions and full 2 storey extensions. His biggest "homer" was the drawings for a £2.2m sets of industrial units. Copy paste, copy, paste.
I've seen scores of drawings submitted to my local authority and there is no way on Earth they've taken a long time to produce. The standards of some drawings are dreadful and I feel sorry for the people who've paid someone a few hundred pounds for what is not much better than a sketch on a few sheets of paper.

You mentioned an architect providing a professional service and the costs need to covered. For a normal extension/conversion there is abolutely no need for an architect. Engineer yes because without one you have no calcs and no proof that a certain beam is sufficient. But to employ an architect for a simple extension seems a bit much to me.

Alarash

Just a post to say thank you to everybody who has posted and in particular to you James for going through my post and offering specific advice.

Well I have 2 architectural technologists visiting over the next few days, I found their emails via the CIAT website. So we'll see what happens.

biggy123456789

Alarash wrote: »

Just a post to say thank you to everybody who has posted and in particular to you James for going through my post and offering specific advice.

Well I have 2 architectural technologists visiting over the next few days, I found their emails via the CIAT website. So we'll see what happens.

Excellent new Alarash good luck with everything.

Darich, yes your right there is no need for an architect but to ensure a good service and not just some CADmonkey as they are known as is vital especially if soemthing goes wrong!! I feel if your brother has been doing copy paste copy paste then he isn't doing his job correctly!! every job is different. Yes there are certain details that can be reused but in completely different circumstances. Also if he or yourself are charging only a few hundred pounds for these sorts of jobs then you are far too cheap for this type of work, it is specialized and a professional service your providing.

Thanks James