Communal stair cleaning bill

orangeslimes

I live in a flat with a communal stairwell where I am a tenant in Scotland. There is a man who comes round and cleans the stairs. He has put a bill through our door for doing so. As neither I nor my flatmates have never made any agreement or had any discussion with this man that he cleans the stair do we legally have to pay him? (I suppose we will eventually it just slightly annoys me, especially as he doesn't do a very good job)

Fire_Fox

In England the cost of cleaning and maintenance of the communal areas are the responsibility of the leaseholder, it may be the bill has been put through your letterbox intended FAO your landlord. Have a chat with him or the Factor if there is one to see how the land lies, also read through your tenancy agreement to check you have not inadvertently agreed to pay the cleaner.

Jowo_2

Are you a factored close or a self-factored close? It could be that the Factor or owners association have established a contract with this company - ask your neighbours. If you are Factored, I suggest you complain about the standard of their contractor.

The tenements acts in Scottish law compel all flat owners to pay towards cleaning and repairs in the common area whether they like it or not to prevent the buildings from degrading. Entire communities in parts of Scotland have been blighted by tight flat owners who won't pay out for essential repairs or basic cleaning of communal areas. If you've ever been to Govanhill (also known as Govanhell), you'll understand why slums thrive when owners don't care about the condition of the infrastructure.

Though you are not an owner, you will find more information on the owners obligations on the Shelter Scotland website.

Since you are tenants, check what your contract says about a charge for cleaning in the common area or raise it with your landlord. It will be the landlord's responsibility to pay for any repairs.

orangeslimes

Repairs etc are organised by the local council so I guess they are the factor? We don't pay for those.

The lease includes a clause saying that the tenant is responsible for sweeping and cleaning the communal stairs along with the neighbours - so I assume upkeep in terms of cleanliness of the the common stairs is our responsibility.
And I guess having someone else do it is the better option than trying to do it ourselves - but assuming everyone in the block actually pays him I think he is charging quite a lot, and he only cleans the actual stairs with a machine thing (if he was on his hand and knees it would be different), never the walls so there is a obvious black waterline.
I would guess from the bill he is just some self employed guy, so far as I know he isn't contracted by anyone.

I suppose could see what my landlord says. Never seem to see my neighbours and the one that liked to organise things/get involved in writing notes on the doors etc seems to have disappeared.

Jowo_2

I really don't understand the set-up you describe where the council pay for repairs and each individual flat is billed separately each time the close is cleaned. Is it an ex-council flat?

I don't quite understand how the council are responsible for communal repairs/cleaning for a private flat - do you live in a flat in a social housing building that's been bought under the right to buy? Even when that happens, an owner of an ex-council flat is responsible for paying towards their share whereas the social housing tenants do not have to.

Now you understand your obligation to keep common areas clean, you can take up the poor quality of the cleaning with the appropriate person or organisation and find out if the cleaning company has a contract to do this - ask the cleaner if don't want to approach your neighbours.

Not sure why you feel you only get your money's worth if the cleaner scrubs the stairs on their hands and knees, why it's cheating to use a machine...If you don't like the quality, or the standard exclusion of the wall from being cleaned, buy a mop and bucket, or find out who engaged them and let them know you aren't happy with the service.

Quite often a cleaning company (gardener, too) will have a contract with the Factor or owners association which has a sinking fund to pay for this kind of thing, chipped into by the owners on a monthly basis and therefore paid out via that fund. They rarely have the patience to try to extract small sums of money out of each individual owner or tenant.

As demonstrated by yourself, it is a big effort for them to try and get a few quid out of each flat, a small minority of whom will always fail to contribute, in my experience. Many trades companies will not do work for a tenement/block of flats without a Factor or proof of self-factored common funds because they do not have the inclination to split an invoice 8 ways and extract the money out of each flat. Some won't work for non-factored buildings full-stop precisely because of the difficulty in getting paid for their work because of obstructive owners who can only be made to pay up if they are taken to court, and still it is fairly common not to be able to enforce payment.

Absent landlords are notorious in Scotland for bringing their buildings to their knees by failing to cooperate with essential repairs - some Factors and therefore insurers refuse to touch certain buildings because they have so many untraceable ghost owners and the rest can't raise enough money to pay for its upkeep.

I used to 'organise things/get involved' in our self-factored tenement but gave it up because of the stingyness and laziness of the other owners, particularly those that let out their properties. Now the owners in my block have to pay through the nose for a Factor to manage and insure the building because they wouldn't pitch in so I gave up (you can tell I have an agenda behind my response to you, can't you!).

That's why a lot of that legislation I mentioned was bought in and why some councils are now forced to undertake repairs in entirely private properties to stop them from falling down and try to recoup their costs in court. And that's why so many tenements like ours prefer to live where a majority of people are owner occupiers - getting landlords or their tenants to understand and comply with their simple obligations is very frustrating. We ended up with rats and no water for days through burst pipes due to landlord related issues in our building.

orangeslimes

Jowo wrote: »

I really don't understand the set-up you describe where the council pay for repairs and each individual flat is billed separately each time the close is cleaned. Is it an ex-council flat?

As far as I know it isn't an ex-council flat, but it is definitely the council that we had to call when the lights stopped working, and the council who send out statutory repair notices (although I haven't read any of these as they are addressed to the owner not us)
EDIT: I just looked at the Council website - they run their own factoring service so I assume my block of flats is signed up to that.

I think basic stair cleaning as opposed to repairs is a separate issue from the council.

I don't quite understand how the council are responsible for communal repairs/cleaning for a private flat - do you live in a flat in a social housing building that's been bought under the right to buy? Even when that happens, an owner of an ex-council flat is responsible for paying towards their share whereas the social housing tenants do not have to.

As far as I am aware the flat belonged to a relative of the current owner who lived here before he died. Of my neighbours I have spoken to, one recently bought their flat, and one other flat is definitely also an HMO, so as far as I know it isn't social housing.

Not sure why you feel you only get your money's worth if the cleaner scrubs the stairs on their hands and knees, why it's cheating to use a machine...

In the sense that hands and knees would take a lot longer than 3 minutes. That's all.

Quite often a cleaning company (gardener, too) will have a contract with the Factor or owners association which has a sinking fund to pay for this kind of thing, chipped into by the owners on a monthly basis and therefore paid out via that fund. They rarely have the patience to try to extract small sums of money out of each individual owner or tenant.

That's why I find it slightly odd, I would prefer to know a bit more before posting a cheque. I am usually out when he comes round.

As demonstrated by yourself, it is a big effort for them to try and get a few quid out of each flat, a small minority of whom will always fail to contribute, in my experience.

so far he has just put a tiny slip of paper through the door

Absent landlords are notorious in Scotland for bringing their buildings to their knees by failing to cooperate with essential repairs - some Factors and therefore insurers refuse to touch certain buildings because they have so many untraceable ghost owners and the rest can't raise enough money to pay for its upkeep.

I have an address for my landlord, and hopefully he is paying the repair bills. He has sorted his HMO license and gas certificate and has a repair contract with a gas company at least.

That's why a lot of that legislation I mentioned was bought in and why some councils are now forced to undertake repairs in entirely private properties to stop them from falling down and try to recoup their costs in court. And that's why so many tenements like ours prefer to live where a majority of people are owner occupiers - getting landlords or their tenants to understand and comply with their simple obligations is very frustrating. We ended up with rats and no water for days through burst pipes due to landlord related issues in our building.

I don't think we are that bad as tenants...and I do understand a lot of what you are saying which is why I am willing to pay, just want to find out a bit more first and he could be anyone. It seems a bit odd to charge someone for something without speaking to them (though maybe he spoke to previous tenants). He has charged us mostly in advance anyway.

LilacPixie

We have a stair cleaning bloke well company but its usually a guy. He posts a bit of paper thru the door saying stairs cleaned today but the cost is 6 monthly in the factor fees. £13 every 6 months we are so equivilent to 50p a week. This is per flat nd its a block of 6. It only takes him/them about 15 mins to sweep and mop.

orangeslimes

LilacPixie wrote: »

We have a stair cleaning bloke well company but its usually a guy. He posts a bit of paper thru the door saying stairs cleaned today but the cost is 6 monthly in the factor fees. £13 every 6 months we are so equivilent to 50p a week. This is per flat nd its a block of 6. It only takes him/them about 15 mins to sweep and mop.

That is much cheaper than our guy.

joolley

orangeslimes wrote: »

he only cleans the actual stairs with a machine thing (if he was on his hand and knees it would be different), never the walls so there is a obvious black waterline.

How bizarre. Hands and knees? Do you think this poorly of anyone who does a service for you? They must look as if they've earned their money? Next thing you'll want your bank teller to have an abacus.

I suppose could see what my landlord says. Never seem to see my neighbours and the one that liked to organise things/get involved in writing notes on the doors etc seems to have disappeared.

Why don't you ask your landlord to pay your council tax too! I do not suppose there is anyone who 'likes' this job because persons like you make it difficult.

Look pay for the cleaning of the close. It's your responsibility. Although, you say stair, so I'm thinking Edinburgh. If it's too dear, you arrange for Edinburgh CC to take over. It's £75/year for private buildings.

orangeslimes

joolley wrote: »

How bizarre. Hands and knees? Do you think this poorly of anyone who does a service for you? They must look as if they've earned their money? Next thing you'll want your bank teller to have an abacus.

There is no need to jump down my throat and be sarcastic, all I mean is if I am paying for a service then the charge for it should be in proportion to how long it takes, and it seems like quite a lot to me (compared to what comparisons I have)

Why don't you ask your landlord to pay your council tax too!

I mean ask my landlord about what he knows of the arrangement and also I haven't lived in a flat with a communal stair before so I wasn't 100% sure where responsibility lies

I do not suppose there is anyone who 'likes' this job because persons like you make it difficult.

I have not in any way made anything difficult for anyone. All I am saying is that before I send a cheque in the post to some guy I have never met or spoken to i would like to know a bit more about who he is and how he is contracted, and also I think his charges are quite high. He will be paid in due course because I would rather he came then no one doing anything.

gauly

I'm not sure why people are so critical of the OP here - if I got a bill through the door that was seriously overpriced and for something I never requested which was badly done by a person I had never heard of I would want to do some research on it too. I'd probably knock on the neighbours door though and see what they think rather than coming on here. I'm guessing that no-one in the block is taking responsibility for organizing the cleaning so you are getting rather overcharged. Personally I'd just pay the bill rather than get involved in the organization of the place!!