Over-indebtedness in britain

carolt

Generali wrote: »

To reverse the question, what would you do with people that refuse to earn a living for themselves carolt?

I have often pondered this question as I have never read the argument from the Left as to why people who are fit and well should be able to spend a lifetime claiming benefits.

Can you shed some light?

lemonjelly, you might want to have words with Generali, who I think is the one responsible for introducing the political stuff - my earlier posts were about debt, pure and simple; Gen wants any excuse to try to diss the Labour party - it's getting a bit tedious now.

And I agree - irrelevant to this thread.

Maybe he forgot this wasn't his anti-Communism thread? And actually posted on the wrong thread? It does seem rather off-topic, I agree.

fedupfreda

carolt wrote: »

The vast majority of Labour supporters are not onbenefits - but are now as fed up with the failures of the benefit system to protect the needy but not trap the greedy/lazy into a life on benefits as everyone else. It's one of the reasons why traditional Labour supporters like myself won't be voting Labour this time.

Carol - I agree with practically everything you have posted but I think you have hit the nail on the head with the above statement in bold

The point is, there gets a point beyond which, any gains in income are wiped out by losses in entitlement to benefits. So people are discouraged from working any harder, because it just isn't worth it :mad:. When you take into account the extra costs involved with work (transport, tax take, NI contributions, work clothes, I could go on but you get the idea...) a lot of people have done the sums and think !!!!!!, it's just not worth the candle. 'Cos the majority of jobs paying this sort of wage are never ending, soul destroying and physically ruinous - they've calculated that they will end their working lives shattered, and have little energy left to enjoy any retirement - even if they have the pension or savings to do so.:(

So I am hardly surprised when people see their friends enjoying holidays, cars etc on credit and think 'hey, I work just as hard, I deserve a reward as well'. The snag comes when it has to be paid back.:( We have been educated into certain expectations these days - that a holiday abroad every year, a nice car, to buy a house, they are all needs, rather than wants. A lot of the time the system has effectively 'pushed' people into taking up what was on offer - because it makes a lot of money for those that run the system. Its a case of "Yes - we'll offer you a mortgage for an overpriced house - 'cos even if you default we can take it off you and even if you're in NE we can chase you for the shortfall - so we never lose - the only loser is you":mad:. Its in banks interests to have people paying high interest rates and minimum payments for a long time. Its the regular income they are looking for. They don't want people who pay their bill in full every time - there's no profit in it. Its why they offer sub prime cards to those who, in every honesty, would have no realistic prospect of paying it back.:mad:

The point is the whole system is at fail point. The whole of the last boom was built on the shaky foundations of easy, cheap credit. If wages for ordinary people don't rise in line with the real rate of inflation (don't trust statistics) then how do they make up the shortfall??? With no access to credit, how do they survive? I can't see the banks writing off the debts, somehow. But I can't see them getting a lot of it back, either. There's only so far you can squeeze people. I really worry for this country. I can't see things getting any easier in the near future.:(

(PS if this has come out garbled, I do apologise. I have been nursing a migraine for the past 2 days and the brain is still addled )

lostinrates

fedupfreda wrote: »

(PS if this has come out garbled, I do apologise. I have been nursing a migraine for the past 2 days and the brain is still addled )

I hope you wake up feeling great tomorrow. I understood your post, its clearer than mine are, and people seem to get at least 80% of mine...so I think you're in the clear.;)

carolt

fedupfreda wrote: »

Carol - I agree with practically everything you have posted but I think you have hit the nail on the head with the above statement in bold

The point is, there gets a point beyond which, any gains in income are wiped out by losses in entitlement to benefits. So people are discouraged from working any harder, because it just isn't worth it :mad:. When you take into account the extra costs involved with work (transport, tax take, NI contributions, work clothes, I could go on but you get the idea...) a lot of people have done the sums and think !!!!!!, it's just not worth the candle. 'Cos the majority of jobs paying this sort of wage are never ending, soul destroying and physically ruinous - they've calculated that they will end their working lives shattered, and have little energy left to enjoy any retirement - even if they have the pension or savings to do so.:(

So I am hardly surprised when people see their friends enjoying holidays, cars etc on credit and think 'hey, I work just as hard, I deserve a reward as well'. The snag comes when it has to be paid back.:( We have been educated into certain expectations these days - that a holiday abroad every year, a nice car, to buy a house, they are all needs, rather than wants. A lot of the time the system has effectively 'pushed' people into taking up what was on offer - because it makes a lot of money for those that run the system. Its a case of "Yes - we'll offer you a mortgage for an overpriced house - 'cos even if you default we can take it off you and even if you're in NE we can chase you for the shortfall - so we never lose - the only loser is you":mad:. Its in banks interests to have people paying high interest rates and minimum payments for a long time. Its the regular income they are looking for. They don't want people who pay their bill in full every time - there's no profit in it. Its why they offer sub prime cards to those who, in every honesty, would have no realistic prospect of paying it back.:mad:

The point is the whole system is at fail point. The whole of the last boom was built on the shaky foundations of easy, cheap credit. If wages for ordinary people don't rise in line with the real rate of inflation (don't trust statistics) then how do they make up the shortfall??? With no access to credit, how do they survive? I can't see the banks writing off the debts, somehow. But I can't see them getting a lot of it back, either. There's only so far you can squeeze people. I really worry for this country. I can't see things getting any easier in the near future.:(

(PS if this has come out garbled, I do apologise. I have been nursing a migraine for the past 2 days and the brain is still addled )

Not garbled at all. Great post.

treliac

fedupfreda wrote: »

The point is, there gets a point beyond which, any gains in income are wiped out by losses in entitlement to benefits. So people are discouraged from working any harder, because it just isn't worth it ..........

............I really worry for this country. I can't see things getting any easier in the near future.:(

Terrific post Freda. :T

fedupfreda

lostinrates wrote: »

I hope you wake up feeling great tomorrow. I understood your post, its clearer than mine are, and people seem to get at least 80% of mine...so I think you're in the clear.;)

Thank you lir, and to those who also expressed concern. :A I am much better today. TBH I didn't intend to post - just read - but the thread caught my eye and the subject is a particular bugbear of mine. I have always found it frustrating that the ordinary working person has been systematically bled dry, whilst those in control - laugh all the way to the bank.:mad: Others have said it - it's the nature of capitalism - but whatever happened to noblesse oblige??? Once, those in power realised they were the lucky ones, and behaved accordingly - at least on the surface. I am well aware hypocrisy was rife behind the scenes. For the past 10 years at least, its been a case of everyone for themselves.:mad:

I think things have to change now - I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks the next few years are going to be correspondingly hard and austerity ridden - I just wish they would get on with it. I feel like I'm in the last month of pregnancy - fed up with being kicked in the ribs all the time - I'm willing to get on with the pain of birth - 'cos the end result was always worth it.

lostinrates

fedupfreda wrote: »

Thank you lir, and to those who also expressed concern. :A I am much better today. TBH I didn't intend to post - just read - but the thread caught my eye and the subject is a particular bugbear of mine. I have always found it frustrating that the ordinary working person has been systematically bled dry, whilst those in control - laugh all the way to the bank.:mad: Others have said it - it's the nature of capitalism - but whatever happened to noblesse oblige??? Once, those in power realised they were the lucky ones, and behaved accordingly - at least on the surface. I am well aware hypocrisy was rife behind the scenes. For the past 10 years at least, its been a case of everyone for themselves.:mad:

I think things have to change now - I'm sure I'm not the only one who thinks the next few years are going to be correspondingly hard and austerity ridden - I just wish they would get on with it. I feel like I'm in the last month of pregnancy - fed up with being kicked in the ribs all the time - I'm willing to get on with the pain of birth - 'cos the end result was always worth it.

Noblesse oblige was never ever fool proof and those with money now often lack the noblesse part...and I don't been in birthright I mean in personal quality..

Its also been considered a big flaw it seems to me to try and help from a place of advantage.

otherwise I agree.

fedupfreda

lostinrates wrote: »

Its also been considered a big flaw it seems to me to try and help from a place of advantage.

otherwise I agree.

I agree it has often come across as hypocritical and sanctimonious,which is probably why it fell out of favour. However its hard to live within one's means, when those higher up the social/financial scale are engaged in so much conspicuous consumption. They over spend - crash spectacularly - go on telly and brag about it - then end up with a pile again. It's hardly surprising that some come away with the impression that 'if the celebs do it, so can I'. The hard fact is that debt and bankruptcy are sheer hell for most people. You can't always believe what you read in the papers.:(

dopester

lemonjelly wrote: »

I'll say again, the debt isn't the problem. The issue is about sustaining regular repayments. If something upsets that balance, that is where you have a problem.

Education should help prevent things like overstretching yourself too far.

Agreed LJ.

We used to know this.. previous generations.

Not including reasonable level of mortgage debt, my Gran passed her strict rule to my Mum.

'You should only ever have one thing at a time on tick.' (borrowed credit/money until you've repaid in full).

Harry_Powell

abaxas wrote: »

Why do they for anything other than huge ticket items. The only two I can think of are cars and property.

Using credit for anythning else just proves their inability to exist.

Season ticket loans (Train not football!), Student loans/Study loans, White goods (try an exist for more than a day without a fridge! or try and fit a launderette visit around a working week). There are lots of expensive purchases that poor people have to use credit for that many of us would simply pay by cash. Other things like central heating repair, car repair, etc.

I found myself nodding along to carolt's posting. Quite disturbing! Though I would suggest approaching credit unions for emergency loans rather than using a credit card.