Opinions sought on older child who wants nothing to do with me

f-stop

Hi, and apologies in advance for the long first post, this situation has been ongoing for several years now!

A bit of background: Only daughter, now approaching 18, ran away from home aged 14. We found out that she'd been chatting on MSN to her guide leader, a woman in her 40s, had essentially encouraged her to live at her house. That's not an opinion btw, it's taken from one of my daughter's "blog" posts.

Child services at the time were basically useless, with half saying "oh this is intolerable, something must be done, especially as this woman has had one child taken into care already", and the other half saying "well what the child wants is the most important thing, we have to take that into account".

Then first CB was awarded to the other woman, then an award for child support by CSA. Thus adding legitimacy to the situation, despite some in child services still saying that everything possible should be done to make it clear that the situation could only be temporary. I should add that both me and my wife were classed as NRPs and had separate CSA judgements made against us.

Fast forward through a few years in which I tried to maintain as much contact with daughter as possible, although that was very difficult as she was determined that she wasn't ready to meet me again. We did actually meet up twice in three years, and although I thought those meetings went well, subsequent messages made it clear that she thought it had been disastrous :-$ Email, facebook and MSN contact continued throughout however.

My wife and I have subsequently separated, although relations are still amicable. Both of us have new partners since then...which brings us to February of this year, and a big falling out between me and my daughter, basically because of the new person in my life. Despite having only met for about ten minutes, and exchanging only a few words, daughter decided that this person was not right for me and essentially said "it's me or her!". Bear in mind that msn/facebook messages are an imperfect medium for this kind of discussion, but alas when that's all there is...

Anyway, when it became clear that I wasn't going to just end a relationship with someone because daughter asked me to just like that, I got a message basically saying "I don't want to know you anymore, you're not my father" and so on. And also messages were sent to everyone else in my family along the lines of "Don't tell me what my dad is doing or saying, I don't want to know".

Which is fair enough I guess, but the following day my ex and I both got calls from the CSA, explaining that a review of circumstances had been requested by one of the parties involved. I know it was my daughter or the woman she lives with who have started this, as the CSA magically had my "restricted list" mobile phone number which they could have only got from her.

Now, I had no problem paying child support, this isn't about getting out of support. But this latest request just seems like "oh there are two more salaries to plunder, let's get a piece of that". Having to support a 17, going on 18 year old who voluntarily lives with a woman who has no guardianship, no court residence order, and who isn't a relative, just seems plain wrong to me. The complete lack of access and indeed lack of communication as well is so so so frustrating - I know that maintenance and access are two different things but all official channels seem to say "well this is a 17 year old, essentially an adult, you can't expect there to be a mechanism for enforcing access" but at the same time "this is a child, and you must therefore support her".

As it happens, 23 days after the original message, I'm still waiting for the re-assessment forms from the CSA. I have spoken to them on the phone and asked about appeals and so on due to changed circumstances, they confirmed there will be another 30 day window for appeal but that as long as CB is payable to this woman, that's what their decision will be based on.

Grrrrr, just so frustrated with this whole situation! Sorry again, that turned into a bit of a rant :-$

missmontana

I'll start with an apology aswell, I'm sorry but I don't understand how this woman your daughter lives with can claim CB if she doesn't have guardianship of your daughter in the the first place. Surely she should have some sort of residence order? And I hate to ask this, but is it all "above board" and for the right reasons that this woman encouraged your daughter to go and live with her in the first place?
Is your daughter in full time education? Even if she is, the issue of CSA will not last for much longer.

Its sad about the way she feels, but maybe as she gets older things will get easier.

Kimitatsu

I have to say in your shoes I think I would be taking Child Services to court for failure to do their duty. Having read your first paragraph, grooming was the first word that came to mind.

As a guide leader she should have known better and encouraging a child to leave home to live with them in this day and age is deplorable. IMO take legal advice.

I am confused though because if the assesment was made under CS2 (after 2003) then your partners salary no longer is an issue as they take 15% of your net income into account and that is all.

The PWC in this case can ask for a redetermination at any time but it will only go on the NRP's salary - in this case you and your ex wife.

mrbrightside842

Does that not count as kidnap? If a 14 year old moves in with a man who is not a relative, then the police would surely get involved. Why is it ok for a woman to 'take' someone's child, even if the child is willing?

borders_dude

Couple of things dont add up.

Is the OP a troll?

missmontana

You could be right, what did you see that doesn't add up?

kingfisherblue

As a Brownie and Rainbow leader, I find this a very odd situation. I have also been a Guide leader in the past. Firstly, I would never have communicated with any Guides via the internet and I don't think many leaders would.

If the OP is not a troll, my first question is why hasn't he contacted the Guide Association as this is surely a matter of child protection? This is something that we take extremely seriously - a leader must undergo training in CP in order to gain her Adult Leadership Qualification. You cannot be a leader without this. There are also additional CP qualifications that you can take within guiding.

www.girlguiding.org.uk - the OP can contact GGUK from this link if this post is genuine. I am sure that I am not the only guider who would be horrified if this post was not a wind up.

Also, how can a person who does not have parental responsibility, residency order, or guardianship rights obtain CB? Did the OP and his wife not contest it? Did they not contact the police, who can intervene?

f-stop

Thanks for taking the time to respond.

Missmontana: no, I still don't understand it either. The mantra of the CB department is "where the child lives" comes first; if Child Services can't (or in this case, won't) remove the child, that's that. AFAIK, things are "above board" in the sense that I presume you meant. Child services certainly decided that she wasn't "in danger". But (this addresses mrbrightside842's point also) the point I consistently made at the time was that if it was a man involved, daughter would have been removed very quickly. Yes she is in full time ed (well 12 hours a week anyway :-$) and yes, the end is in sight I suppose. But yes, it is sad she feels that way

Kimitatsu: yes, I know NRPP's salary isn't taken into account, it's just a feeling that maybe they don't know that, and that feeling is really really annoying.

mrbrightside842: Police will only attend and assess if any danger, if not, pass on to Child Services. How this 'danger' or lack thereof is assessed seems to be a black art :-$ Having said that, one person in Child Services did explain to me at one time that they really do want to do more for "fringe" cases but that the financial realities of their funding mean they have to prioritise dealing with cases where children are in obvious and immediate physical danger

borders_dude: well, I'm not a troll, but I would say that I suppose lol. Nothing about this whole thing adds up for me either even after all this time, but ask away and I'll try to clarify.

kingfisherblue: yes, I know the guideline that states that GG leaders shouldn't communicate this way, and should at the very least report messages received. At the time, I intimated to the woman in question that I would report her to the GGUK, her response was to immediately quit the GGUK. As for CB, yes it was contested at the time; as far as the Police are concerned, see the point made above.

missmontana

It disturbs me that this woman has made such a big deal to take care of your daughter, and as for claiming child benefit, I thought only a parent or legal guardian could do this. (anyone feel free to correct me if this is wrong)

And as for the CSA, how does that work if she is not legally responsible for your daughter, or does the money go into your daughters account now?

chriszzz

f-stop wrote: »

Hi, and apologies in advance for the long first post, this situation has been ongoing for several years now!

A bit of background: Only daughter, now approaching 18, ran away from home aged 14. We found out that she'd been chatting on MSN to her guide leader, a woman in her 40s, had essentially encouraged her to live at her house. That's not an opinion btw, it's taken from one of my daughter's "blog" posts. Am I right in saying that your daughter has been living with this women since she was 14 ??

Child services at the time were basically useless, with half saying "oh this is intolerable, something must be done, especially as this woman has had one child taken into care already", and the other half saying "well what the child wants is the most important thing, we have to take that into account". So mum dad and Child services had no control over the child, even tho they knew that the woman had her own child took into care

Then first CB was awarded to the other woman, then an award for child support by CSA. Thus adding legitimacy to the situation, despite some in child services still saying that everything possible should be done to make it clear that the situation could only be temporary. I should add that both me and my wife were classed as NRPs and had separate CSA judgements made against us. Were you and your wife still together at this point??

Fast forward through a few years in which I tried to maintain as much contact with daughter as possible, although that was very difficult as she was determined that she wasn't ready to meet me again. We did actually meet up twice in three years, and although I thought those meetings went well, subsequent messages made it clear that she thought it had been disastrous :-$ Email, facebook and MSN contact continued throughout however.

My wife and I have subsequently separated, although relations are still amicable. Both of us have new partners since then...which brings us to February of this year, and a big falling out between me and my daughter, basically because of the new person in my life. Despite having only met for about ten minutes, and exchanging only a few words, daughter decided that this person was not right for me and essentially said "it's me or her!". Bear in mind that msn/facebook messages are an imperfect medium for this kind of discussion, but alas when that's all there is... but this child ran away from her parents when she was 14 and met up with you twice in 3 yrs which according to her were disastrous!! Then met your new partner for 10 minutes basically did not like her and gave you an ultimatum "its me or her!"

Anyway, when it became clear that I wasn't going to just end a relationship with someone because daughter asked me to just like that, I got a message basically saying "I don't want to know you anymore, you're not my father" and so on. And also messages were sent to everyone else in my family along the lines of "Don't tell me what my dad is doing or saying, I don't want to know". Your child at the age of 14 had already decided to leave her parents and didn't want to know you then.

Which is fair enough I guess, but the following day my ex and I both got calls from the CSA, explaining that a review of circumstances had been requested by one of the parties involved. I know it was my daughter or the woman she lives with who have started this, as the CSA magically had my "restricted list" mobile phone number which they could have only got from her.

Now, I had no problem paying child support, this isn't about getting out of support. But this latest request just seems like "oh there are two more salaries to plunder, let's get a piece of that". Having to support a 17, going on 18 year old who voluntarily lives with a woman who has no guardianship, no court residence order, and who isn't a relative, just seems plain wrong to me. The complete lack of access and indeed lack of communication as well is so so so frustrating - I know that maintenance and access are two different things but all official channels seem to say "well this is a 17 year old, essentially an adult, you can't expect there to be a mechanism for enforcing access" but at the same time "this is a child, and you must therefore support her". This can not be right!!!! So any woman can guide children away from their families and without the Social Services and Court Action, we parents don't stand a chance and CB and CSA goes to the strange woman to look after the child without legal proceedings to even check her out?? even tho her own child has been taken into care!!!

As it happens, 23 days after the original message, I'm still waiting for the re-assessment forms from the CSA. I have spoken to them on the phone and asked about appeals and so on due to changed circumstances, they confirmed there will be another 30 day window for appeal but that as long as CB is payable to this woman, that's what their decision will be based on.

Grrrrr, just so frustrated with this whole situation! Sorry again, that turned into a bit of a rant :-

speedster

one thing i have learnt is..........

NEVER underestimate the complete and utter incompetence of the social services.

i have witnessed some completely bizarre decisions regarding child welfare on numerous occasions and now know to take absolutely nothing to be beyond their stupidity. and that's without the massively public howlers and children dying whilst under their "care"

this case is no worse than a few i have helped with. in fact, one case recently where i helped prep the nrp for court, the social service report had more holes in it than a !!!!!!!g sieve, yet the court just bent over and took it as gospel.

oh, and as far as the CSA goes, CB is the be all and end all of who gets the dough.