Confusing Parking Sign leads to fine

molerat

The signs to me mean that it is a split point of different regs but should they have arrows showing which direction each regulation applies ? Are there marked bays to the left of the sign ? If there are no bays to the left then who knows what they actually mean.

DaveF327

I'm beginning to think you may have parked in the wrong bay which is for permit holders only.

Any chance we can see a photo of the scene from a wider perspective? Ideally taken at right angles to the kerb so many bay markings are visible.

There's a small chance I may be able to raise an issue with the actual bay markings, but before I can offer a defence on a technicality, I really need a better view of the surrounding area.

peter_the_piper

molerat wrote: »

The signs to me mean that it is a split point of different regs but should they have arrows showing which direction each regulation applies ? Are there marked bays to the left of the sign ? If there are no bays to the left then who knows what they actually mean.

Unfortunately arrows are definitely helpful but not mandatory.

AP777

Yes, I'm starting to wonder too.

Unfortunately I can't easily get back there to take more photos as I work in London during the week.

Think I'll just give the appeal a go anyway, on the grounds of being a very confusing sign, the sign not having any directional arrows, and the fact that the sign post is positioned just inside the parking area that I'm in.

I shan't hold my breath, but will try the humble appraoch, you never know.

Thanks again for all the advice, very much appreciated

Coupon-mad

Glad to see you found the similar thread on pepipoo.com (same Council too). I really think the lack of arrows on the signs does make them very confusing, I bet they issue a lot of PCNs in that area.

I just posted on the pepipoo thread that that OP (and you) would be well advised to try to get sight of the Traffic Management Order for the streets in question, whilst the Council is 'considering' your informal appeal. Now if you assume they will reject your appeal (they usually do at informal stage, it's a bit of a joke really) then using your time now to get a copy of the TMO may help you when you get to the next stage, your formal appeal.

It is your right to see and ask for a copy of the TMO which is the overriding authority on exactly what restrictions apply to that street. The signs are of secondary importance and could well not reflect the intentions of the Order. Maybe the little additional 'permit holders' bit on the right has been added to the sign, but not added to the TMO, you never know?

Anyhoo, good luck and do post back when you see the TMO or get a rejection/Notice to Owner.

AP777

I made an appeal, based around the signs being confusing, however I have received a letter today saying my appeal has been rejected.

One comment I find frustrating is :"The signs also have restrictions on either side of the pole in order to indicate which side the restriction apply from the pole"......this was just my point in the appeal, the main sign was in the middle of the pole and there was no arrows to indicate that the 2 hour restriction was meant for the lift side of the road. Granted there was an additional sign on the right of the pole, which said Permit Holders only, which I now realise was meant for cars parked on the right side of the road.

I guess there isn't much point disputing the PCN is there? The letter says that this can only happen after the 14 days reduced charge has expired, which is annoying too. The letter also says that this would involve a formal representation....what does that mean?

Thanks for all the comments

Coupon-mad

AP777 wrote: »

I guess there isn't much point disputing the PCN is there? The letter says that this can only happen after the 14 days reduced charge has expired, which is annoying too. The letter also says that this would involve a formal representation....what does that mean?

Thanks for all the comments

Personally, I would say you guess wrong, as this rejection at this informal stage happens in 99% of cases. So this was to be expected.

Councils rarely overturn a ticket at this early stage in the process - it was only your informal appeal and they don't give up on money that easily even if your appeal is watertight. It's not right that Councils do this, but it's true!

What the letter means is that they will send you a Notice to Owner, which could arrive anytime shortly. When you get that, they will usually re-offer the discounted price or you have to submit your formal appeal. Which can be the same as the informal one!

In the meantime, ask the Council for sight of the Traffic Order for that place, as I suggested above. They have to provide it to any interested person as it's a public document - but don't let them assume that your request is a FOI request as they can delay those. Make it clear you want sight of the Traffic Order by return (email them or go to the relevant Council office, you don't have to say why).

Silly isn't it? Do take the advice of others and anyone on pepipoo but I think they will all tell you that this early rejection was totally normal. Councils like to play a game of bluff to get as many people to pay as possible. But you still have as good a case as you always did IMHO.