PLEASE HELP... with my aggressive puppy!

LittleTinker

Lemony wrote: »

I'm not sure if I agree with the article. I think a dog needs to know it's place in the household whether it is a 'pack' thing or not. A lot of dog behaviour problems are caused by stress and I agree that punishing or frightening a dog is the wrong thing to do. But that doesn't mean that the dog doesn't need to be taught what behaviour is and isn't acceptable. You have to be the 'leader' if you want to be able to control a dog's behaviour. If the dog doesn't see you as the leader it won't respect you and could even be a nuisance or a danger to other people when out and about. And this probably applies more to some breeds than others as some dogs are naturally friendly and docile whereas others are naturally bossy and fiesty.

I have tried a firm 'NO' when my dog bites but he completely ignores me. I have tried putting him in his pen to calm down for a bit but he just does it again when I let him out. I have tried distracting him with toys but he is more interested in biting skin. I have tried just ignoring the behaviour but it's difficult to ignore something that hurts so much plus won't that just give him the message that it's ok to bite humans?

I do not want to punish my dog, I want to reward good behaviour. Please give me more ideas on how to stop the biting because it is really getting me down. He bit me and my other half this afternoon and drew blood. Another thing he likes to do is grabbing your trouser legs and tugging with all his might, growling as he does it. I try to stand still and ignore it but he accidentally pinches my legs which hurts. I have also tried saying 'NO' firmly but he completely ignores me. Distracting him with toys doesn't work unfortuantely.

Hes 10 weeks old and has missed out on the vital part of learning with his mum and siblings where they test the boundaries.

When pups play you will see that they bite and yelp and bite more and yelp more....this is more than just play.....it is actually teaching them that their teeth are sharp and that they can easily get hurt themselves.

Your puppy is doing what comes naturally to him and no 'siblings or mum' are telling him that hes hurting. You have to take on that role.

When he bites, say "Ow".....and nip his ear back until he yelps. This is not cruel as it is exactly what dogs do during the early years. He left his siblings too early and you need to step in.

You cant really just reward him for good behaviour at 10 weeks of age because he doesnt know where the boundaries are yet until you tell him.
Once he knows that he cant just bite without being 'bitten' back and that it hurts then he will be receptive to learning more.

suki1964

LittleTinker wrote: »

Hes 10 weeks old and has missed out on the vital part of learning with his mum and siblings where they test the boundaries.

When pups play you will see that they bite and yelp and bite more and yelp more....this is more than just play.....it is actually teaching them that their teeth are sharp and that they can easily get hurt themselves.

Your puppy is doing what comes naturally to him and no 'siblings or mum' are telling him that hes hurting. You have to take on that role.

When he bites, say "Ow".....and nip his ear back until he yelps. This is not cruel as it is exactly what dogs do during the early years. He left his siblings too early and you need to step in.

You cant really just reward him for good behaviour at 10 weeks of age because he doesnt know where the boundaries are yet until you tell him.
Once he knows that he cant just bite without being 'bitten' back and that it hurts then he will be receptive to learning more.

Pup was 10 weeks old back in feb - this is an old thread which was just updated

Lemony

Thank you for you input. He is approx 8 months old now. He is rescued so we don't know exactly how old he is or what happened to him before he was found. All we know is that at approx 6 weeks old he was dumped in a cardboard box beside a road with his siblings. He remained with his siblings at the RSPCA for 2 weeks (until he was estimated to be about 8 weeks old) until I picked him up and gave him a home. I was told before I rescued him that he was, and I quote 'quite nippy'! They weren't kidding there, lol. I have tried all the usual techniques, rewarding good behaviour, yelping when he hurts me, saying no firmly and other things but nothing has worked. I have been in contact with the RSPCA the whole time and they think it is partly a characteristic of the breed as we're now sure he is a Patterdale Terrier. A behaviourist will be coming to see me soon and I will update this thread with any advice she gives me as it may help someone else in a similar situation (although no two dogs are the same so the same techniques won't necessarily work).

Raksha

LittleTinker wrote: »

Hes 10 weeks old and has missed out on the vital part of learning with his mum and siblings where they test the boundaries.

When pups play you will see that they bite and yelp and bite more and yelp more....this is more than just play.....it is actually teaching them that their teeth are sharp and that they can easily get hurt themselves.

Your puppy is doing what comes naturally to him and no 'siblings or mum' are telling him that hes hurting. You have to take on that role.

When he bites, say "Ow".....and nip his ear back until he yelps. This is not cruel as it is exactly what dogs do during the early years. He left his siblings too early and you need to step in.

You cant really just reward him for good behaviour at 10 weeks of age because he doesnt know where the boundaries are yet until you tell him.
Once he knows that he cant just bite without being 'bitten' back and that it hurts then he will be receptive to learning more.

I don't know where you got the idea that Mother and siblings go around biting each other because they've been bitten - because they don't! If they did dogs and puppies would be dying all over the place from infected dog bites...... Dog 'language' is far far more subtle than that, and if you start physically hurting your pup to encourage it to stop doing something, what are you going to use when that ceases to be effective?

LittleTinker

Raksha wrote: »

I don't know where you got the idea that Mother and siblings go around biting each other because they've been bitten - because they don't! If they did dogs and puppies would be dying all over the place from infected dog bites...... Dog 'language' is far far more subtle than that, and if you start physically hurting your pup to encourage it to stop doing something, what are you going to use when that ceases to be effective?

When pups play they are constantly biting each other....they nip their legs, ears, tails....all the time.
They learn that when they mouth a sibling, a certain point of pressure in their jaw causes pain and the sibling yelps and turns round to bite back.

They do not draw blood or cause a wound (mostly) so how will any of them end up with infected dog bites?.....not sure what you mean by that, to be honest. Small nips are all they use.

Noone should hurt their dogs as a deliberate act of cruelty.....to smack them or try discipline them with force.....but if a small puppy were taken from its siblings too early, he will have missed out this vital puppy play......the part of its life where it learns boundaries.

It is this part of a puppys life that an owner needs to try simulate in the absence of other puppys. If a pup mouths too hard the owner must yelp and bite back to let it know it has reached the point of pressure.

I think you have taken the word "bite" that I used and thought of a chunk of flesh being removed.....it is meant to be a nip. An owner can use his fingers to nip, as its the same thing.

WeirdoMagnet

LittleTinker wrote: »

Noone should hurt their dogs as a deliberate act of cruelty.....to smack them or try discipline them with force.

LittleTinker wrote: »

An owner can use his fingers to nip, as its the same thing.

I try not be drawn into these threads about behaviour/training as I have quite strong views that we should all be able to use positive methods, but what you are saying are, IMO, one and the same.

It is likely that by the time the puppy had nipped you and you've managed to get your teeth or fingers to it's ear to cause pain, that your timing is way off anyway, and the pup would just end up really confused.

There are positive methods that can be used, but in the first instance I would try to record when the puppy nips - when they're tired? when they're hungry? when they want attention? and try to manage the pattern so it can't exhibit that behaviour. This could be done by teaching an alternative behaviour that you do want, or by using an incompatible behaviour like giving the dog a chew before it starts nipping - the thinking being it can't chew and nip at the same time.

Georgie

Raksha

LittleTinker wrote: »

When pups play they are constantly biting each other....they nip their legs, ears, tails....all the time.
They learn that when they mouth a sibling, a certain point of pressure in their jaw causes pain and the sibling yelps and turns round to bite back.

Yes - but rarely actually making contact because they are already learning bite inhibition. the vast majority of the time, they will simply move away and refuse to play, which is a method easily replicated by a human.

LittleTinker wrote: »

They do not draw blood or cause a wound (mostly) so how will any of them end up with infected dog bites?.....not sure what you mean by that, to be honest. Small nips are all they use.

I've had infected 'small nips' from many a puppy, still bear the scars to this day. Fellow dog trainers have needed anti biotics for the infections they've got, one even nearly lost a finger!

LittleTinker wrote: »

Noone should hurt their dogs as a deliberate act of cruelty.....to smack them or try discipline them with force.....but if a small puppy were taken from its siblings too early, he will have missed out this vital puppy play......the part of its life where it learns boundaries.

So why use pain/discomfort and fear inducing techniques to get what you want, when reward based methods (positive and negative rewards) are more effective.

LittleTinker wrote: »

It is this part of a puppys life that an owner needs to try simulate in the absence of other puppys. If a pup mouths too hard the owner must yelp and bite back to let it know it has reached the point of pressure.

Agree that the owner has to simulate the response of a litter mate - but as i've indicated above, that does not mean biting back! If a pup has learnt to 'bite back' then it's already down the route of learning to bite to get what it wants. This seems to be the problem the OP is now dealing with.

LittleTinker wrote: »

I think you have taken the word "bite" that I used and thought of a chunk of flesh being removed.....it is meant to be a nip. An owner can use his fingers to nip, as its the same thing.

And teach the pup to be wary of human hands coming near it's ears - so what happens when a child wants to look in the pups ear?.........

The punishment based methods have been used for so long, without thought for the consequences, enlightened trainers are now becoming aware a) of how much more effective reward based training is, and b) how serious the results may be of training a dog in this way. How many vet nurses are bitten whilst restraining pet dogs? How much simpler (and less stressful) it would be for all if the dog was taught that humans hands only come to give good things......

LittleTinker

Raksha wrote: »

Yes - but rarely actually making contact because they are already learning bite inhibition. the vast majority of the time, they will simply move away and refuse to play, which is a method easily replicated by a human.



I've had infected 'small nips' from many a puppy, still bear the scars to this day. Fellow dog trainers have needed anti biotics for the infections they've got, one even nearly lost a finger!



So why use pain/discomfort and fear inducing techniques to get what you want, when reward based methods (positive and negative rewards) are more effective.



Agree that the owner has to simulate the response of a litter mate - but as i've indicated above, that does not mean biting back! If a pup has learnt to 'bite back' then it's already down the route of learning to bite to get what it wants. This seems to be the problem the OP is now dealing with.



And teach the pup to be wary of human hands coming near it's ears - so what happens when a child wants to look in the pups ear?.........

The punishment based methods have been used for so long, without thought for the consequences, enlightened trainers are now becoming aware a) of how much more effective reward based training is, and b) how serious the results may be of training a dog in this way. How many vet nurses are bitten whilst restraining pet dogs? How much simpler (and less stressful) it would be for all if the dog was taught that humans hands only come to give good things......

Im not talking about punishment based training.....I dont agree with punishment based training........I am referring to the stage at which a puppy should not even have left its Mother and siblings. This is for a stage that is missed out that is before the age of 12 weeks.

When I said "blood isnt drawn" you mentioned trainers with "scars to this day".....I was talking about dogs in reply to the statement you made in the previous post. You said there would be dying dogs everywhere because of all the biting......so I replied with, no there wouldnt be becasue the biting that happens from the pups does not draw blood.

There is a big difference between training a dog and filling in for a missed out period that lasts 2 or 3 weeks.
After a couple of weeks the nipping will stop and the human does not need to play the part of a sibling pup.

Sibling pups bite each other when learning......but they dont grow up always biting other dogs, so what makes you and the other poster think that this will continue after they have learnt their pressure point?
Why would they fear a human hand? They dont grow up fearing other dogs.

I think you are misunderstanding what I mean somewhere along the line.

Raksha

And if I can mis understand it. so can Joe Bloggs who comes along looking for help with their puppy who bites.

If you are going to give advice on the 'net, don't you think it would be a good idea to make sure your advice can't be mis understood? Better still - make sure that even if it IS mis understood, that the outcome isn't going to mean the dog suffers?

You claim you aren't talking about punishment based training - but you are! A punishment is defined as something the 'pupil' doesn't like. You can add punishment - by hurting/causing discomfort (squeezing with the fingers) if the pupil does something you don't like, or you can take away punishment - such as stopping 'squeezing' with your legs when riding a horse - either way it's punishment based training.

Reward based training is based around things the pupil does like - such as food rewards or 'golden days' at school. Again, these can be added, or taken away (positive and negative). The technique suggested of removing yourself from the pups vicinity is 'negative reward' - removing something the pup enjoys (or should).

Some pups DO grow up biting other dogs - either because they've learnt to be bullies, or because they've learnt it's the only way to drive the other dog away when it's frightened by their presence. They also grow up fearing hands - it may not always mean you have a dog who snaps at hands, but their subtle body language will tell you they aren't happy.

LittleTinker

Raksha wrote: »

And if I can mis understand it. so can Joe Bloggs who comes along looking for help with their puppy who bites.

If you are going to give advice on the 'net, don't you think it would be a good idea to make sure your advice can't be mis understood? Better still - make sure that even if it IS mis understood, that the outcome isn't going to mean the dog suffers?

You claim you aren't talking about punishment based training - but you are! A punishment is defined as something the 'pupil' doesn't like. You can add punishment - by hurting/causing discomfort (squeezing with the fingers) if the pupil does something you don't like, or you can take away punishment - such as stopping 'squeezing' with your legs when riding a horse - either way it's punishment based training.

Reward based training is based around things the pupil does like - such as food rewards or 'golden days' at school. Again, these can be added, or taken away (positive and negative). The technique suggested of removing yourself from the pups vicinity is 'negative reward' - removing something the pup enjoys (or should).

Some pups DO grow up biting other dogs - either because they've learnt to be bullies, or because they've learnt it's the only way to drive the other dog away when it's frightened by their presence. They also grow up fearing hands - it may not always mean you have a dog who snaps at hands, but their subtle body language will tell you they aren't happy.

And there you go again. (what happened to rollyeyes?)

Cheers for the lecture though! :T