Please help re flat deposit

Voyager2002

I'm a little puzzled by the mention of solicitors' fees. Under normal circumstances it is not possible to recover legal costs in the small claims court (which this is, I take it). So if she has submitted a counter-claim that includes substantial legal costs then she is either trying to frighten you, or it shows that she has not bothered to find out about the legal process.

Unless there is some explanation FROM THE COURT about why she is able to recover legal costs (I think this is possible under certain highly exceptional circumstances, but not in your case).

Anyway, it does sound to me as if her counter-claim is extremeldy weak. I think (hope) that the marks from oven-cleaner and the undated photos will discredit her in the eyes of the judge.

Please find out (from a court official) how much of your response has to be filed in advance. Obviously you need to contest her claim, but the less information you give away in advance the better.

mrweeble

The solicitor's stuff is nonsense, she has no right to charge you for that, in fact I can't see how the LA can even charge her, unless she signed a really stupic contract with them (ooh I hope so) but you can not be held liable for contractual relationships between her and her letting agent.

To claim you didn't clean and to to support this, to submit photos of residue of oven cleaner as evidence is just about the funniest thing I have ever heard.

Oh by the way when I was looking for a place to rent I found http://ononemap.com/ to be useful - gives a google map of an area that you can scroll around and zoom in and out of that has pin points for every property matching your criteria (price, rooms, distance from railway station/school/whatever) rather nifty.

Good luck.

zebulon

EagerLearner wrote:

Invoice from solicitors is addressed to the letting agent, which they have passed on to her, and she has included in her counterclaim.

mm... I wonder when/how it was passed on to her.

Would that be how she 'discovered' about the court case?

Anyway, my thought on this is - just carefully prepare (again I know) everything. every single bit of paper, doc, letter, dates ...
1 ) things that would answer points by points to her counter claim
2) any extra that would show the she did not treat you 'correctly' about all this; if you see what I mean

And my other thought is (not helpfull sorry) - I would think that some pictures are actually from now - that is that she might not have done the work (change carpet etc) ... who knows

EagerLearner

Hi all, just got in from work -

Thanks for all your responses throughout today - hopefully I can clear up some bits with these points:

- The solicitors fees she has presented are from the solicitors to the letting agent. They have then passed these fees onto the landlady, who is now trying to get us to pay for them. Given that a) the contract is between them and b) hiring a solicitor was their choice, I agree that it shouldn't concern us.

- Do we mention this point in our defence?

Photos are from cleaner drips on oven hob (from when we cleaned, possibly having too much water and it dripped after we left?), washing machine rim of machine, inside of oven, carpet stains, mark on radiator, chips off paintwork. None of them show real damage, as far as we can see it is wear and tear over 2 years of living there. Plus most of these types of item were mentioned on check-in inventory.

- Do we mention the above in our defence?

I am going to call Citizens Advice tomorrow and hopefully get through to someone this time.

I agree that her points are weak - she even claims we refused delivery of an oven once, we never refused delivery - the oven wasn't working so we wanted a replacement one asap, why would we refuse delivery?!

I will talk more tomorrow - have a friend who has had a really bad day and need to talk it over with her and see how she is - quick baked beans on toast then out the door - talk more tomorrow guys

clutton_2

the HMCS leaflet EX307 "The small claims track" says

"Can i take someone with me to the hearing ?

Yes. If you do not have a solicitor, you can take someone with you to speak for you. This person is called a "lay representative" and can be anyone you chose"

I asked my local court official if the opposition party in my suit could bring a solicitor, and she said yes, and when i asked if i would have to pay their costs if i lost, the answer was "at the judge's discretion"

Voyager2002

clutton wrote:

the HMCS leaflet EX307 "The small claims track" says

"Can i take someone with me to the hearing ?

Yes. If you do not have a solicitor, you can take someone with you to speak for you. This person is called a "lay representative" and can be anyone you chose"

I asked my local court official if the opposition party in my suit could bring a solicitor, and she said yes, and when i asked if i would have to pay their costs if i lost, the answer was "at the judge's discretion"

Yes, but in practice it would be very unusual for the judge to make the loser pay for the winner's solicitor.

John_Pierpoint

Hi EagerLearner,

It looks like you are going to have to go all the way with this one.

I've never been a participant in a civil court procedure, though my local council once sued me for a bill I had in fact paid (They ignore phone calls and can't read letters) However I have been involved in claiming compensation and have had to appear at a few planning enquiries.

After all this time, all sorts of sub plots have develloped, BUT you must be clear about your objective and avoid getting taken down blind alley-ways.
Remember your landlord's objective is simple TO GIVE YOU BACK NOT ONE PENNY, Landlord is bringing her solicitor and if he knows his trade he will try to get you off the point and if he can get you to appear uncertain and muddled and especially if he can get you to throw a wobbly, he will be winning and earning his fee.
Personally I would ignore him. Remember a solicitor stands BEHIND his client not infront. I would speak through the judge but direct any replies to the landlord as though she, not her mouthpiece, has raised the point.

Also assume the judge knows absolutely nothing about your case, so you must be prepared to explain dates, addresses, relationships and get the right names infull to match the peoples title (ie landlord is .... .... .... including any aliases). Pictures can be worth a thousand words. Be cool calm & collected and stick to the central simplicity of your argument.

If you get a moment have a look at the back page of this month's "Which?" magazine. It is an interview with a kindly but determined looking cove, who acts as judge at a small claims court. If you get someone like him, he will see through the woffle, and you will be home and dry.

Good luck, you deserve to win.

John

PS I once spent about an hour explaining a compensation case to a surveyor
appointed to make a decision and as I finished I realised the idiot did not know where he was; so all my explanations of East v West - North v South
had been a waste of time, the man did not know which way was up. I think the ASSUMPTION I made that he had at least opened the file before coming to see me, probably cost me 5K GBP off the 20K compensation I wanted. So present you case starting at the beginning and try to check that the judge
is keeping up with the plot. (Tell them what you are going to tell them, then tell them, then tell them what you have told them).

barnaby-bear

EagerLearner wrote:

Thanks jhxmt and Wickedkitten - that's what it sounds like but we are scared she will make us out to have done all the things she says. We did attempt communication so many times and she just did nothing, all it would have taken was a call to the letting agent to assure us. Most good landlords would respond asap and just be fair.

regarding early communications and texts, you were green adn naive and thought you were responsible for degree of wear and tear but later realised landlords claim 10% back on tax for wear and tear, fair wear and tear is allowed and betterment (i.e. new blinds for old with a mark) is specific term and specifically not grounds to withold deposit (take ARLA / OFT guidelines). Pictures of marks on carpet, presumably same as on inventory? No pictures before tenancy. Emphasise lived there for two years.
Cleaned oven, oven cleaning proof, landlady gave you no opportunity to redress. !!!!!! you cleaned inside the oven presumably you did outside if you bothered doing that!

Costs incurred re wrong address - it was HER LEGALLY responsibility to supply servicable address. How come letting agent knew about case and had bill and now she has it?

Disputable receipts. i.e. not receipts - where's the carpet receipt? Why is painting receipt now her address.

Ask for clarification on addresses and names since she uses multiple.

nrsql

You probably have a number of grounds to claim on here:
She has already been paid out of tax for wear and tear - after two years this will probably have more than paid for the damage indicated.
She was uncommunicative in the extreme.
She was in contact with the agent so must have been receiving your complaints (not to mention the court action).

You should not be expected to pay to make the property to the same standard as when you moved in - she gets tax benefit for that.

BobProperty

clutton wrote:

the HMCS leaflet EX307 "The small claims track" says

"Can i take someone with me to the hearing ?

Yes. If you do not have a solicitor, you can take someone with you to speak for you. This person is called a "lay representative" and can be anyone you chose"

I asked my local court official if the opposition party in my suit could bring a solicitor, and she said yes, and when i asked if i would have to pay their costs if i lost, the answer was "at the judge's discretion"

Voyager2002 wrote:

Yes, but in practice it would be very unusual for the judge to make the loser pay for the winner's solicitor.

Can I just agree with the above. Hopefully someone with more legal knowledge will confirm this, but I believe that a judge would only award costs in a small claims case if the case was "frivolous" or "vexatious".