Moneysaving- dont buy a 4x4 in london!

Altarf

Sybarite wrote:

But you seem not to appreciate that unless constructive, even painful measures are taken now some of these things will come, not out of choice but of necessity and they will be enforced by governments. After a couple of energy related wars and a scramble for land suitable for food productionas a result of climate change, I imagine the restrictions on travel and energy 'freedoms' will probably be quite profund.

If you believe that limiting fuel usage will balance up the enormous increases in fuel usage in China, India, etc, that's fine. But I don't. And if your prediction of doom and gloom is true, I might as well enjoy life now.

Sybarite

That's fine if that's how you feel - but you're sort of posting on the wrong board. This is after all the 'Green and Ethical Money Saving' board.

It simply depends on your level of concern and social conscience regarding these issues and indeed whether you want to save any cash.

The India and China arguements are certainly valid though - but that's sort of outside the scope of the 'can leading a greener lifestyle also be a moneysaving one' topics found here.

Altarf

Sybarite wrote:

It simply depends on your level of concern and social conscience regarding these issues and indeed whether you want to save any cash.

Perhaps if this thread had been a discussion on the cheapest 4x4 to run in London, such as which ones avoid Ken's proposed charge, rather than being a '4x4 drivers are evil maniacs' thread I might agree with you and not bothered to post. However most of the posts to this board don't seem to be 'Green and Ethical Money Saving', just 'Green'.

What gets me is the selective targets, petrol 4x4s are evil, but 'normal' diesel cars are OK and moneysaving. But are they 'green'? The diesel car produces far more nitrogen dioxide than a petrol 4x4, a big problem in London, so which is 'greener'? Why not start a campaign to ban london cabs?

Thenotsowyzewun

I haven't read much into the Climate Change Levy, but here's where the 96p figure comes from: http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1074404189

EDIT: From a list of exceptions: "fuel oils, as they are already subject to excise duty;"

Damn. But businesses are more frivolous with energy (shops leaving their lights on all night, extra long lorries driving around empty, the hundreds of lights in supermarkets, not to mention those open freezers (with the ice cream and pizza in) in supermarkets that use ridiculous amounts of energy...

And all you saying I'm too extreme, well I'm sure all the poor souls that have died in Afghanistan, Iraq and soon Iran wouldn't think so (it's undeniable that that's just an energy war), and I'm sure all the homeless people in Bangladesh (having had their homes destroyed) wouldn't think so either, or the victims of the Asian Tsunami's (it's undeniable that those tragedies were caused by Global Warming).

Altarf

Thenotsowyzewun wrote:

I haven't read much into the Climate Change Levy, but here's where the 96p figure comes from: http://www.businesslink.gov.uk/bdotg/action/detail?type=RESOURCES&itemId=1074404189

EDIT: From a list of exceptions: "fuel oils, as they are already subject to excise duty;"

Damn. But businesses are more frivolous with energy (shops leaving their lights on all night, extra long lorries driving around empty, the hundreds of lights in supermarkets, not to mention those open freezers (with the ice cream and pizza in) in supermarkets that use ridiculous amounts of energy...

Yes I guessed that you were thinking about CCL, but as you now know it is not charged on any fuels that have excise duty on them.

What you may not know are the other details, for example what about an oil refinery that uses a vast quantity of energy to produce petrol - nope they don't pay CCL. In fact it is possible that the evil oil refinery is generating 'green' electricity that can be supplied to other businesses without CCL.

Hereward

Thenotsowyzewun wrote:

And all you saying I'm too extreme, well I'm sure all the poor souls that have died in Afghanistan, Iraq and soon Iran wouldn't think so (it's undeniable that that's just an energy war), and I'm sure all the homeless people in Bangladesh (having had their homes destroyed) wouldn't think so either, or the victims of the Asian Tsunami's (it's undeniable that those tragedies were caused by Global Warming).

Um, I'd like to see you prove that the Asian tsunami was caused by global warming: I think you will find it was caused by an undersea earthquake. I as far as I am aware you cannot link man-made climate change with an earthquake. If you meant to write the victims of hurricane Katrina, then the jury is still out if climate change had anything to do with it.

Penelope_Penguin

lynzpower wrote:

Now dont get me started on my MP.... :mad:

Oooh, Lynz, not Gorgeous George, perchance...............

Penny. x

Thenotsowyzewun

Hereward wrote:

Um, I'd like to see you prove that the Asian tsunami was caused by global warming: I think you will find it was caused by an undersea earthquake. I as far as I am aware you cannot link man-made climate change with an earthquake. If you meant to write the victims of hurricane Katrina, then the jury is still out if climate change had anything to do with it.

Asian Tsunami Hails Ecological Collapse

Sybarite

Altarf wrote:

Perhaps if this thread had been a discussion on the cheapest 4x4 to run in London, such as which ones avoid Ken's proposed charge, rather than being a '4x4 drivers are evil maniacs' thread I might agree with you and not bothered to post. However most of the posts to this board don't seem to be 'Green and Ethical Money Saving', just 'Green'.

What gets me is the selective targets, petrol 4x4s are evil, but 'normal' diesel cars are OK and moneysaving. But are they 'green'? The diesel car produces far more nitrogen dioxide than a petrol 4x4, a big problem in London, so which is 'greener'? Why not start a campaign to ban london cabs?

I'd certainly like to help with your concerns so;

I'd much cheaper not to have an SUV and to have a normal car.

Cheapest SUV? well a hybrid at least this brings the emissions level down to that of a normal car. You could try biodiesel conversion - both of these options should get around the congestion charge or LPG - but they're more problematic. You could live within the charge area if you have to go there frequently - residents are after all exempt & you might find you could walk to your destination rather than drive.

Become/marry an American diplomat - they don't seem to pay.

SUV are 'targets' because it's an easy choice not to purchase one: an issue where the individual is empowered to make an easy environmentally aware choice - unlike lots of other damaging practices.

You are perfectly correct regarding diesel though. A member of my family recently retired as a physicist from one of the big two oil companies: he researched the particulate and pollution emissions from diesel engines for 10yrs, so I've been lectured to death on this topic.

The stuff produces from a diesel exhaust is very nasty indeed & highly carcenogenic - so you should always report smoking diesel vans - this was publicised a few years ago and there's a hotline number somewhere.

Ken did in fact target taxis first - and they were very unhappy about it - I believe they have now negotiated a grant for conversion to cleaner diesel (still not ideal) he has stated that he wants the entire fleet changed to a more eco-friendly fuel. I don't agree that they can use the red route lanes either - but hey thats a lobby group for you.

Personally I'd like to see airfreight and food miles targeted first followed by HGVs, commercial airlines then SUVs, diesels etc. Any machinery that uses petrol is usually dreadfully inefficient too - a domestic petrol lawn mower produces as much pollution mowing the averge lawn as a 40 mile drive.

Sybarite

Altarf wrote:

Perhaps if this thread had been a discussion on the cheapest 4x4 to run in London, such as which ones avoid Ken's proposed charge, rather than being a '4x4 drivers are evil maniacs' thread I might agree with you and not bothered to post. However most of the posts to this board don't seem to be 'Green and Ethical Money Saving', just 'Green'.

What gets me is the selective targets, petrol 4x4s are evil, but 'normal' diesel cars are OK and moneysaving. But are they 'green'? The diesel car produces far more nitrogen dioxide than a petrol 4x4, a big problem in London, so which is 'greener'? Why not start a campaign to ban london cabs?

I'd certainly like to help with your concerns so;

It'd much cheaper not to have an SUV and to have a normal car.

Cheapest SUV? well a hybrid at least this brings the emissions level down to that of a normal car. You could try biodiesel conversion - both of these options should get around the congestion charge or LPG - but they're more problematic. You could live within the charge area if you have to go there frequently - residents are after all exempt & you might find you could walk to your destination rather than drive.

Become/marry an American diplomat - they don't seem to pay.

SUV are 'targets' because it's a simple choice not to purchase one: an issue where the individual is empowered to make an easy environmentally aware decision - unlike lots of other damaging practices which are beyond the individuals control.

You are perfectly correct regarding diesel though. A member of my family recently retired as a physicist from one of the big two oil companies: he researched the particulate and pollution emissions from diesel engines for 10yrs, so I've been lectured to death on this topic (& no he hasn't driven one since)

The stuff produced from a diesel exhaust is very nasty indeed & highly carcenogenic - so you should always report smoking diesel vans - this was publicised a few years ago and there's a hotline number somewhere.

Ken did in fact target taxis first - and they were very unhappy about it - I believe they have now negotiated a grant for conversion to cleaner diesel (still not ideal) he has stated that he wants the entire fleet changed to a more eco-friendly fuel. I don't agree that they can use the red route lanes either - but hey thats a lobby group for you.

Personally I'd like to see airfreight and food miles targeted first followed by HGVs, commercial airlines then SUVs, diesels etc. Any machinery that uses petrol is usually dreadfully inefficient too - a domestic petrol lawn mower produces as much pollution mowing the averge lawn as a 40 mile drive.

Diesels produce less CO2 but more NOx & particulates, NOx isn't a greenhouse gas (but it does get more complicated and it is involved in increased levels of other greenhouse gas emissions) but does indeed have health implications in urban areas. I'm glad we agree on something - I'd whole-heartedly support targeting large diesel vehicles in the same way that SUVs are singled out.