Building work & related legals

rkh001

Not sure if this is the right place but please move it to wherever it would be relevant.

This is quite a long'ish story but I will keep it to the point but please bear with me... Basically I need some comments/advice on behalf of a friend.

2 friends of mine (who are just each other's acquaintances through me) - 1 needed an ensuite built in her main bedroom (so that she could let the room out) and the other's partner is a builder. So I introduced the 2 parties who were quite happy with quotes/work etc and it was going to take 2 weeks to complete. That was last Sept!!

The ensuite looks beautiful but she was told by the builder that no planning permission was required, which friend 1 has since discovered in not true! The water from the basin can only be emptied if you flush the toilet and when you do that, everthing turns up in the shower! The towel rail was falling off the partition by the 3r'd day, and that was with just a hand towel on it.

So friend 1 witheld £900 or so owed. Friend 2 sued in a small claims court and they had presented copies of letters between the 2 parties but taken out pages that were incriminating. So friend 1 put her case forward and the judge was not interested but he said that the builder should get a contractor to complete the job by 10th July. 2 weeks before that date, a contractor came in and said that the job would cost £3.5k and that it would take 4 days and that he can't do it before end of Aug (he was not aware that this was a court order job!!) to the original builder who promptly wrote a letter to the court saying that friend 1 had refused to let anyone into the property and that he would like to be given to end of Aug to complete the job himself as she is now in contempt of the court order! Friend 1 wrote to the court explaining the situation and giving the name and address of the contractor who came round to assess the situation and this contractor has said that he is willing to provide a letter to the court but only at their request.

Today, friend 1 has received a letter from the court ordering her to let the oeriginal builder into her house to complete the work by the end of Aug.

Now, my question is - why is the judge not even reading all the material sent to him as he would soon realise that the builder is a cowboy (I didn't know anything about his wrokmanship)? Secondly, what redress does my friend 1 have to ensure that the work is done up to the buildings regulations and also the water pump (which is HUGE and very noisy) and all the electrics are done as they should be?

I am piggy in the middle as you can imagine but as things stand I am siding with Friend 1 as she is telling the truth and the other friend and her partner have nothing but lied through this whole sorry saga.

Any advice/comments welcome. And thanks for reading.

rachieiceland

Sorry to hear the problems - when I have heard of things like this in the past, it may be useful to go straight to a local Solicitor as they are used to the paper work for the Courts etc - I've seen it and it can be confusing.

Sometimes just a letter from them gets the whole thing moving satisfactorily and then you don't have to get too involved either. Also suggest Friend 1 takes photos and writes a journal of events as well.

hope this helps.

BobProperty

I think what is happening here is that the judge is giving the original builder the chance to remedy the problems, something which the builder is usually entitled to do. The customer needs to get Building Control / Trading Standards / a Surveyor (some third party who knows what they are doing anyway!) to check that the work is done properly and to a reasonable standard. I would suspect Building Control would be the place to start.
I also believe that Planning Permission is not needed unless the property is listed in which case the Planning department will want to be involved.

dougk_2

I am not sure that is planning permission required for the en-suite , rather there is some legal requirements for the electrical work under part-p regulations when it comes to wiring in special places (i.e. areas involving water).

http://www.napit.org.uk/notifiable_work.php

rkh001

I know that the builder is being forced by the court to put it all right but if he didn't do the job properly in the first place...?
Maybe we are just getting too embroilded in the "what liars they are, how could they lie to the courts and get away with it, etc". Perhaps we should concentrate on the fact they are going to have to finish off the work as per the building regulations and fix all the plumbing and electrical issues. It is just so distressing for my friend and I feel so awful becuase I introduced this dodgy character to her. The thing is that I introduced this builder to a huge number of people at a place I use to work at. I don't know the people but a lot of them used him to do work for them and I did hear that some customers were not willing to pay. I didn't for one minute think that it was his workmanship that was the problem.

Thanks everyone. We are just going to have to sit it through as the work now has to be completed by end of Aug and the next court hearing is in Sept and I am appearing there to support my Friend 1. Don't know what the reaction of Friend 2 is going to be - I hate confrontations! Like to bury my head and hope the problem goes away and I don't have to confront anyone. I just wish I had never got involved.

BobProperty

rkh001 wrote:

I know that the builder is being forced by the court to put it all right but if he didn't do the job properly in the first place...?.....

Think about it. He (the builder) isn't likely to have said that in court is he? As I said, it is normal for the defendant in this situation to be allowed the opportunity to put right ("remedy"?) the situation. If he had refused point blank in the court and the judge accepted that the work was incomplete, then the customer would have the right to get someone else to finish the work and possibly get the builder to pay for it. What you can't do is, as a customer, say it isn't finished or I don't like it and I'm getting someone else in to finish the job. Firstly, because the two parties already have a contract for the job (that's the legal bit) and secondly (the legal and practical bit), the first builder will claim to have done most or all of the work before the second one started. Therefore they want paying. Witholding payment without giving the first builder the opportunity of completing the work makes the customer look no different than the fraud who gets a builder to do work for them then refuses to pay on the basis of some trivial excuse. I think a court would award a reasonable amout of the original contract amount to the first builder in these circumstances. You also have the practical consideration of what state the first builder left the place in and how good/bad it was, when a second builder is brought in to finish it. That all IMHO and I'm sorry it's a bit of a ramble but I've personal experience of both sides of this.

rkh001

The original builder made it look very nice cosmetically but the whole ensuite is not funtional. Also, the job is not complete as he still had the water tank to sort out (sorry, don't know the technical words) and he was going to do good the stairs that he had damaged in the process of taking things upstairs. Originally he was asked to come and complete the job to spec but he said that he was now too busy to do it. He would do it as and when he had time! He also used a plumber (an untrained/unqualified young lad who happens to be his partner's son) who has made a mess of the whole plumbing. But they wanted their money before the job was complete. And they had some cash (£150) that they have now denied having but my friend can prove that they were paid that. And when the electrics were done, he told her that she would not need a certificate. (So now her buildings insurance is null and void!) I know that this is not true because 18 months ago we had an electrician who rewired the whole house and we were given a certificate.

I appreciate what you are saying and I know that my friend has had a lot of work done by other tradesmen who have been brilliant and she is not one to not pay anyone. But I can honestly say that you have to see the workmanship to realise how bad it is. In fact it is not my friend who is getting someone else in to get the work completed and put right; it was the court who ordered the original builder who then said that he was too busy but will get a contractor to do it. This was ordered to be done by the courts by 4 p.m. 10th July! Then the origianl builder decided to write to the court (after the contractor had given him a quote of £3.5k) that my friend had refused to let anyone in and hence the work has not been done. And the court now knows this to be untrue but what has happened? My friend has been ordered to let the contractor in and get work completed by end of Aug! The whole thing is turning into a nightmare. The buildings regulations people have written to the court telling them, in detail, what is wrong with the whole thing but the court doesn't seem to have taken any notice of that!! Justice? What justice!!

BobProperty

I appreciate what you are saying and I know that my friend has had a lot of work done by other tradesmen who have been brilliant and she is not one to not pay anyone. But I can honestly say that you have to see the workmanship to realise how bad it is.
Neither me or the judge has seen the work(I'm guessing), so the judge has had to rely on what he has been told or shown.
In fact it is not my friend who is getting someone else in to get the work completed and put right; it was the court who ordered the original builder who then said that he was too busy but will get a contractor to do it. This was ordered to be done by the courts by 4 p.m. 10th July!
I have already explained that the court will usually give the builder the chance to remedy the situation. So has your friend been back to court to complain that this hasn't been done? Or will this have to wait until the September hearing? I don't know the procedure / ettiquette on this, the solicitor should advise.
Then the origianl builder decided to write to the court (after the contractor had given him a quote of £3.5k) that my friend had refused to let anyone in and hence the work has not been done.
So your friend has prevented the builder from carrying out the work he offered to do in court? That's how the builder's solicitor is going to put it in court
And the court now knows this to be untrue but what has happened?
The court knows what to be untrue?
My friend has been ordered to let the contractor in and get work completed by end of Aug! The whole thing is turning into a nightmare. The buildings regulations people have written to the court telling them, in detail, what is wrong with the whole thing but the court doesn't seem to have taken any notice of that!! Justice? What justice!!
I have used the courts several times and been in civil courts a handful of times. The judge can only rely on what is put in front of him and how convincing the arguments by each side are. Were you in the court? As I have already said, it is usual to allow the defendant the opportunity to put right the situation in this sort of case AFAIK. What did you expect to happen? What was your friend told to expect might happen by their solicitor ?

jennifernil

Up here in Scotland you need a Building Warrant ( not Planning permission) for anything involving a toilet, and an electrical certificate if any electrics are involved. Building control need to check that drains are properly done. Without all that there will be no Completion Certificate issued by Building Control, and it would be VERY difficult to sell the property at a later date without one.

rkh001

BobProperty wrote:

I appreciate what you are saying and I know that my friend has had a lot of work done by other tradesmen who have been brilliant and she is not one to not pay anyone. But I can honestly say that you have to see the workmanship to realise how bad it is.
Neither me or the judge has seen the work(I'm guessing), so the judge has had to rely on what he has been told or shown.
In fact it is not my friend who is getting someone else in to get the work completed and put right; it was the court who ordered the original builder who then said that he was too busy but will get a contractor to do it. This was ordered to be done by the courts by 4 p.m. 10th July!
I have already explained that the court will usually give the builder the chance to remedy the situation. So has your friend been back to court to complain that this hasn't been done? Or will this have to wait until the September hearing? I don't know the procedure / ettiquette on this, the solicitor should advise.
Then the origianl builder decided to write to the court (after the contractor had given him a quote of £3.5k) that my friend had refused to let anyone in and hence the work has not been done.
So your friend has prevented the builder from carrying out the work he offered to do in court? That's how the builder's solicitor is going to put it in court
And the court now knows this to be untrue but what has happened?
The court knows what to be untrue?
My friend has been ordered to let the contractor in and get work completed by end of Aug! The whole thing is turning into a nightmare. The buildings regulations people have written to the court telling them, in detail, what is wrong with the whole thing but the court doesn't seem to have taken any notice of that!! Justice? What justice!!
I have used the courts several times and been in civil courts a handful of times. The judge can only rely on what is put in front of him and how convincing the arguments by each side are. Were you in the court? As I have already said, it is usual to allow the defendant the opportunity to put right the situation in this sort of case AFAIK. What did you expect to happen? What was your friend told to expect might happen by their solicitor ?

I am sorry BoboProperty. I think I haven't made it very clear.

The judge has not read both sides of the case as has been evident by the fact that the original builder has left some pages of the originall etters the two parties out of the case notes they presented to the court. If the judge had read everything sent to the court, he would have known this to be case.

The builder was given a chance to rectify the situation by 10th July but 2 weeks before that the builder sent in a contractor to assess the situation and this contractor was going to correct and complete the work. But when the contractor sent a quote of 3.5k to the builder, the builder wrote to the court alleging that my friend had not allowed anyone into the house. If the judge had seen all the notes presented to him since, he would know that what the builder is claiming is not true as the contractor had been allowed into the property and the contractor had said that the he himself could not do the job by 10th July. That is what I mean by the fact that the judge, had he read both sides of the case, he would know that the builder was lying...

No, I was not at the hearing but I do know that the court had given the builder the opportunity to put the work right by 10th July which he clearly failed to do so.

I am not arguing about the fact that the work is not complete and it is not funtional but I am very disappointed that the judge has clearly not read the full case. Every letter, every detail, the independant plumber's report (incidently, appointed by the builder himself!) and the council's building regulation's report (plumber's and council's reports are both very explicit of all the problems of the work done) have been totally ignored by the judge. And the bulder blatantly continues to lie about things like (Ms. xxx did not give access to get the work completed by 10th July, she is in contempt of court, etc etc,)

Now the court have sent a letter to my friend asking that she has been given an extension to end of Aug to get it all finished. I am not quite sure what the hearing in Sept is going to be about!

Please note that I am not here to give any builders a bad name, I am merely isolating one case that I am involved in. The whole court system seems to be shambles. My friend had not refused to pay him on any other grounds other than that the work was not complete. It's only as result of getting the independent people's reports has she found out that infact there is a lot of work that is a complete shambles. I have known the builder for nearly 20 years and I knew his father before him and I can honestly say that the the building work (conservatories, windows etc) he has done and I have seen has all been excellent. That is one reason why I introduced him to this other friend. What I didn't realise was that plumbing is not his field and therefore he has botched the job up.

I hope this is a bit more clear.

rkh001

jennifernil wrote:

Up here in Scotland you need a Building Warrant ( not Planning permission) for anything involving a toilet, and an electrical certificate if any electrics are involved. Building control need to check that drains are properly done. Without all that there will be no Completion Certificate issued by Building Control, and it would be VERY difficult to sell the property at a later date without one.

Precisely, Jennifernil. That is exactly what is happening in this case.
The drains do not work, clearly. The electrics are so dogdy that my friend is no longer covered by her buildings insurance. I don't think that any tradesman who does such a bad job should be allowed to continue until he is properly quailifed. Clearly this person isn't qualified to be a plumber, he is a brickie and a good one too but not a plumber or an electrician!