Disciplinary hearing next week

Hootie19

My son works at a frozen food retailler (not a country) - has been there for a couple of years. Started off as weekend work as a student, then carried on working there after he finished education.

Last week, he was caught using the store manager's log in details on the tills. He was looking (on screen, not in the actual money drawer) to see which till had the most change in it, so that he knew which till to work on the next morning, as change is always an issue.

The manager reported this to the area manager, who wrote in my son's records that he was "looking for money". This make it sound as though my son was looking for money to steal which is definitely not the case.

He has a disciplinary hearing next week and is understandably very worried about the likely consequences. He wants to resign now as he is convinced that he will be sacked. I said not to do anything hasty now, but to wait and see what happens. I think he should have a resignation letter with him and if they say this is a sacking offence, then he should offer to resign instead of being fired. (They did this with a previous employee - an assistant manager - who was caught eating food taken from the shop floor.)

He is particularly worried because the two people who will be carrying out the disciplinary hearing, are well known (among the other employees) to dislike my son, and his concern is that they will use this as an excuse to get rid of him.

In my opinion (speaking from a position of absolutely no knowledge whatsoever!) the manager should not have let his log in deatils be known - not that that excuses my son using them. He says that all the staff know the managers' log ins, and use them all the time for various things. Could this be used as some kind of mitigation (that's not quite what I mean, but I hope you get my meaning).

Does my son's offence sound like something he could be dismissed for? Is there anything he could/should do in advance of this disciplinary?

Vader123

I dont get this part :

He was looking (on screen, not in the actual money drawer) to see which till had the most change in it, so that he knew which till to work on the next morning, as change is always an issue.

Surely if he starts work one morning and the till does not have enough change, he buzzs and asks for it. (At least thats I what I used to do when I worked in a shop in the dim and distant past).

As the argument :

e manager should not have let his log in deatils be known

its a bit rubbish isn't it. Yes the manager should not have divulged it, but that does not your son should have used it. I would not go down this route.

I think he should have a resignation letter with him and if they say this is a sacking offence, then he should offer to resign instead of being fired. (They did this with a previous employee - an assistant manager - who was caught eating food taken from the shop floor.)

Any reference or record can still say "Mr X handed in his notice before the outcome of a diciplinary investigation" and still be correct.

vADER

annie-c

Oh dear, it all sounds very messy and I am very sorry for you and your son. He is lucky to have you as support xx

For a formal disciplinary hearing he will be able to have with him either a union representative or friend. Could you go with him?

Does he have a contract of employment and copies of any store policies, etc? These will help you understand his position.

What does the letter inviting him to the hearing say? It should spell out what he is accused of and what the potential outcomes of the meeting might be?

Under the circumstances it does sound possible that he could be dismissed for misconduct, regardless of the innocence of his motives. I hope it won't come to that but it sounds as though you think this too and that you are trying to limit the damage to his future employment prospects.


Has he made any verbal or written representations yet? That is, has he already raised the issue of the manager's code being well-known by other employees?

From what you have said, I would say that, technically, both he and the store manager are at fault for abusing the security code and could, technically, both be dismissed if the policies have been made clear to them. In harsh reality, unless the store manager has previously done something wrong, then the store manager will have more 'value' to the company than your son and it is not impossible to imagine that your son would be considered easier to 'dispose' of, while sending a strong message to the other staff about the use of login codes etc.

You need to get as much information as you can and you need your son to be very honest with you if you are to be able to help him.

I am inclined to agree with you about having the resignation plan in mind as a back up but most important I think, will be to prepare as well as you can for the hearing and to go in with a clear plan of action so that the company gets the message that they are up against someone who knows his employment rights and cannot be treated unfairly. Citizens Advice Bureau can help with these sort of issues and if you could get your son to make an appointment (usually they are offered on a daily drop in basis) and take as much information with him as possible, then they might be able to help out.

I have no formal experience in all this, I just know a little about employment law informally from having gone through redundancy etc in previous post, and from belonging to a union that deals with these things.

Assuming that his ideal outcome would be to keep his job, then I would suggest he needs to go in there and try to be as calm and non-defensive as possible and first of all acknowledge that he sees now that what he did was wrong and might well look as though he had bad intentions. At the same time, he needs to be clear about why he did what he did and that he did it because it was 'custom and practice' to do so in a store where the manager's login was widely known. However, it would not hurt him, I don't think, to apologise unreservedly for his mistake and assure them he would not repeat it.

If they move to dismiss him, then there should be a written procedure that they must follow (he could perhaps ask for a copy of the disciplinary policy before the meeting)?

If your son had been told that he could not log on to the tills using any other code than his own then the fact that the store manager should not have released the code will not really mitigate against his own wrongdoing, IMO. BUT, it may well be grounds for them to reconsider any plans to dismiss him, and at the very least it may be grounds for them to offer a compromise agreement with an agreed reference, if the company want to part on good terms without any embarassment about their store manager's behaviour.

Personally, I think that if what your son is telling you is the whole truth, then the manager really is at fault here, but depending on the nature of your son's contract and length of service (and whether he still wants to work there after this) then I think you might need to be pragmatic about how far you will get by implicating the manager.

Hootie19

Vader123 - thank you for your reply. He was very upset when I picked him up from work, so I'm not sure I've got the whole story. I'll try and get a bit more from him this evening.

annie-c - thank you for such a considered reply. He hasn't had a letter telling him about the disciplinary - just been told about it verbally.

He hasn't said anything about the manager - that was me "thinking aloud".

He does want to keep his job, yes. I will have a chat with him about the rest of the points you raise, and will suggest he pops into the CAB and tries to get an appointment with them.

Zazen999

How did he get the manager's log in details? What was the reasoning behind the manager disclosing this to him?

dickydonkin

Hootie19 wrote: »

My son works at a frozen food retailler (not a country) - has been there for a couple of years. Started off as weekend work as a student, then carried on working there after he finished education.

Last week, he was caught using the store manager's log in details on the tills. He was looking (on screen, not in the actual money drawer) to see which till had the most change in it, so that he knew which till to work on the next morning, as change is always an issue.

The manager reported this to the area manager, who wrote in my son's records that he was "looking for money". This make it sound as though my son was looking for money to steal which is definitely not the case.

He has a disciplinary hearing next week and is understandably very worried about the likely consequences. He wants to resign now as he is convinced that he will be sacked. I said not to do anything hasty now, but to wait and see what happens. I think he should have a resignation letter with him and if they say this is a sacking offence, then he should offer to resign instead of being fired. (They did this with a previous employee - an assistant manager - who was caught eating food taken from the shop floor.)

He is particularly worried because the two people who will be carrying out the disciplinary hearing, are well known (among the other employees) to dislike my son, and his concern is that they will use this as an excuse to get rid of him.

In my opinion (speaking from a position of absolutely no knowledge whatsoever!) the manager should not have let his log in deatils be known - not that that excuses my son using them. He says that all the staff know the managers' log ins, and use them all the time for various things. Could this be used as some kind of mitigation (that's not quite what I mean, but I hope you get my meaning).

Does my son's offence sound like something he could be dismissed for? Is there anything he could/should do in advance of this disciplinary?

There is not a lot more I can add to annie-c's honest and realistic post

I would suspect that the company has an IT policy and it is likely your son has been accused of breaching that policy.

As no money was stolen, the accusation of 'looking for money' seems subjective but when the whole context of the story is known, it is obviously not as sinister as the accusation is attempting to portray.

I posted a similar scenario yesterday in a different thread when I was fighting for a colleagues job for breaching the companies I.T. policy. That too referred to passwords.

What I believe is important is how your son obtained a supposedly personal password. I wonder if the manager had informed your son of this for 'convenience' when he is unavailable for example.

If that is the case, then whoever divulged that password is potentially in breach of the same policy. If it is the Manager, then this could be embarrassing for the company and may provide an exit strategy for them.

My concern is however, is that it seems the manager whose password was used was the one who reported the matter but It would be interesting to know how the password was obtained in the first place.

Potentially, this could be deemed as gross misconduct and very worrying for your son I am sure, but I think it would be important to be up front from the start and convince the company there were no sinister intentions and emphasise the fact that the only offence committed was foolishness on your son's behalf and an obvious failing in the companies IT and security management.

He says that all the staff know the managers' log ins, and use them all the time for various things. Could this be used as some kind of mitigation

Two wrongs never make a right, but this seems to be a 'routine violation' which will reflect badly on those who are responsible for monitoring the effectiveness of policies and procedures i.e. - the Store Manager?

Good luck anyway and keep us posted.

I suspect the Grim Reaper (Anhilator) will have the black cap on his head as I write!

Money_maker

Just out of interest, surely shops open up with a standard float in all tills?

dickydonkin

Money_maker wrote: »

Just out of interest, surely shops open up with a standard float in all tills?

And to elaborate on that, there will likely be security cameras within the store to prevent and discourage 'fingers in the tills'.

Kez1983

If I were your son I would mention how he came to know the store managers password and explain if it is common to use this, the response will be that they will investigate the managers conduct seperately but he will have been able to state his reasons.

As a retailler breaches of security are taken very seriously and this could be classed as gross misconduct. He your son been trained on till procedures that state he should only use his own code/not use anyone elses?

He should take someone with him to his disciplinary meeting, union rep if he has one or another member of staff, even if simply for a bit of moral support. As Annie-c said he needs to be as prepared for his meeting as possible. If there has already been an investigation meeting when he gets a copy of the notes for this (usually with his written confirmation of the meeting) go through it well and prepare questions or responses to it.

Also to again confirm what annie-c has said, coming from a person unfortunately has conducted many disciplinaries in my time, showing you now understand why what happened was wrong and apologising for it makes the person conducting the disciplinary want to get the best outcome for everyone more than sulking/shouting/accusing everyone else (including the person carrying out the discip!)/refusing to speak at all/etc etc (I have experienced them all!)

Savvy_Sue

He should be given a letter before the disciplinary, when it comes post what it says (without any identifying information) and we can comment further.

It should say that he can take a union rep or colleague, but it would be extremely unusual if it allowed anyone other than that.

Even if your son isn't in the union, it might be worth contacting them for advice, and there's also ACAS.

greendollar

Do not let your son resign.

Has he been suspended on full pay ?
Has he received a letter stating what the allegations are that he has to answer at the disciplinary ?
Has there been any sort of investigation ?

When he attends the disciplinary state that everyone uses the managers log in details and for that reason saw nothing wrong in using them himself .

How did he know the managers log in details ?

DO NOT ADMIT THAT HE KNEW WHAT HE WAS DOING WAS WRONG.

Explain that it normal practise among other employees to use the managers log in details .

Read up on statutory disciplinary procedures and (from what you've said so far they're not ) see if they are following them . If they are not DON'T TELL THEM .

If your son is sacked it will help at his appeal or tribunal.