Disciplinary hearing next week

Hootie19

dpassmore wrote: »

If there was performance related issues that warranted disciplinary action, why have the company now decided to address these at the same time as the alleged 'main offence'?

That's a good point. Would be interesting to have their take on this.

dpassmore wrote: »

I am assuming any performance related issues have been raised at a previous appraisal, if not, it would be difficult to cite this as a disciplinary matter if the employee has not been given the opportunity to rectify any previous shortcomings in his performance.

I asked if they had ever raised any issues at his appraisals. He replied "what's an appraisal". He's been there since November 2007!

dpassmore wrote: »

The performance of an employee (unless given previous warnings or improvement requirements from appraisals or disciplinaries) in my opinion is irrelevant to this incident.

I don't understand why these issues - whatever they are - haven't been raised formally before. Shouldn't he be told in the letter exactly what these are, so that he can prepare his case?

dpassmore wrote: »

Hootie19 - was your son suspended after the incident? If so, was there a letter confirming this and the reasons for suspension and did it differ from the reasons given on the hearing letter?

No, he wasn't suspended. He has been working as normal - usually on the till - so I'm assuming they can't have too many issues as to his honesty regarding money in the tills.

dpassmore wrote: »

I would ask for a copy of the company's Disciplinary procedures and I.T. policy and highlight the managers breaches and it would also give the opportunity to ascertain that the company have conformed to their own procedures (you would be surprised how often some companies fail to conform and the case has had to be dropped - well from my experiences anyway)

Maybe your best tactic is using an attack as your defence citing the disclosure by the manager of his personal password. He has obviously breached the policy by disclosing it and allowing its use.

It should indicate in an I.T. or company policy that it could be tantamount to gross misconduct to disclose passwords. It could also be argued that there are 'performance related issues' with the manager due to the fact he is not monitoring the companies policies and procedures - allowing all and sundry to use his password compounds that view.

He asked this morning for a copy of the disciplinary procedure which wasn't available in store, but his store manager has said he will try and get a copy. He has also asked for the name and number of their union rep - again the manager didn't know, but is asking this aftrenoon and will ring him with the information. I have told him to also ask for a copy of the IT procedure.

dpassmore wrote: »

Again, two wrongs don't make a right, but you could suggest you are being victimised as it is only you that is potentially being punished for basically the same offences committed by the manager - namely the breach of the company's I.T. policy and questionable performance.

That may be a useful "tool" to use. There are three log ins - the manager's, the assistant manager's and the supervisor's. Apparently two of them have now been changed. My son already knows the manager's changed log in as he saw him use it today!!!

My son is the only one who has been "caught" using one of the log ins, although other staff have done so. Am I right in thinking that these fancy new computerised tills would be able to identify if other staff members have used them - for example, a log in using a manager's details when the manager has not been in the store?

dpassmore wrote: »

I would suggest you seek appropriate legal advice - that may be available from your union or local CAB, although time may not allow for those options.

My views are how I would consider the situation based on the information that has been posted.

Thank you for the detailed advice. All information is being noted and although my friend cannot accompany him (confirmed by head office when my son called them this afternoon), she is going to "brief" him on Sunday to help prepare him for what might happen during the meeting.

He said to head office that he was unhappy at being given such short notice, but they said that he was given verbal notice last Wednesday that there would be a disciplinary hearing "next week" and that they had therefore given him plenty of notice.

dickydonkin

As he has not been suspended, that could potentially be a good sign also by asking management for documentation and contacts portrays that he will be fighting his corner.

I would strongly suggest he is accompanied - just in case any verification is required at a later date should the procedure progress. Even a friend or colleague would be better than nothing - better still if that person can confirm the free use of passwords.

It sounds as though 'your friend' has no association with the company or your son's union therefore it is understandable that the company have refused her attendance, however, my wifes former employer did allow me to represent her in redundancy consultation meetings, although this will likely be the exception to the rule.

Without any previous appraisals or disciplinaries that have required improvemnent in performance, it will be difficult for the company to pursue this if no opportunity has been given to improve. I am surprised that such a big company does not have appraisals for their staff, but it will be interesting to know what the 'performance issues' are relating to.

Regarding the 'log in's, the system will obviously show that the manager had indeed used the system (even when he didn't) as it was his password that was being used to access the system.

If there is evidence that shows that 'log ins' had been carried out in the Managers absence, it will be extremely unlikely that such information will be disclosed to your son as that will strengthen his case and weaken the company's.

Does he actually know who is carrying out the hearing?

This information should ideally have been disclosed on the hearing letter. As I stated earlier, it was a very poorly drafted letter (or words to that effect!). Also as you indicated, details of the 'offences' and any subsequent investigations should have been forthcoming - I would get your son to ask why this was not the case.

It may be helpful to your son if a member of the HR dept from head or regional office is in attendance.

I would be a little concerned if this is not the case as there is potential to hide any management indiscretions, and I would be extremely surprised if this is carried out totally by in-house staff.

The company would also be vulnerable to incompetencies in the disciplinary process as it would be unlikely that any of the store staff have enough competence to deal with disciplinaries/potential dismissals. It is oh so easy to get wrong reulting in the company paying costly legal fees and bad PR.

Incidentally, would it have affected the operations of the store if the other staff who apparently used the 'log in' never used it?

For example, quick acces to a till was required and no 'key holder' was available?

It definitely seems that this routine violation was allowed to continue as a matter of convenience.

Get your son to ask why he was not given a copy of the company's policies when he started. Most companies issue handbooks on commencement of employment - certainly when a contact of employment is offfered.

If no policy was issued, then I would plead ignorant and suggest I was not aware any policy or procedure was being breached. If he was told verbally- then I would deny such information was conveyed. Hearsay is hard to prove and the onus would then fall on the company to show your son was aware of the requirements.

Keep posting the developments.

Proc

Sounds like he's not doing his job properly - and you're only seeing the good in him.

He was seen texting on a freezer, but you know it's false. How do you know this? Let me guess, he told you this? There's rarely smoke without fire, and I know that if I was working for someone, and a colleague was making allegations that were false to land me in trouble all hell would break loose.

Performance issues. He "only" didn't rotate some stock? Apart from the potential health implications, not rotating stocks (especially meats) could work out expensive in terms of wastage.

With regards to using his manager's password to see what float was in so he didn't run out of change? To be honest, I for one moment do not believe that and I would imagine that the area manager or whoever will see straight through the bullcrap. I can't believe that a supermarket would put themselves in a situation where tills are always running out of change. Again, I think that you want to believe it to be true - as you clearly think your son is a little angel.

You wonder why your area manager doesn't like your son? Well it sounds like he's just a headache. Wants to change his hours, using manager's passwords, not doing his job properly, requesting copies of his contract, wanting to take friend to a hearing, rumours of using mobile phone on the job etc etc. I wouldn't like him, he just sounds like too much hard work for too little return.

I also think that there is a lot your son isn't telling you. I bet the "performance" side of the disciplinary has a plethora of allegations from lateness, incorrect cashing-up procedures, poor stock rotations, slow service, etc etc.

dickydonkin

Proc wrote: »

Sounds like he's not doing his job properly - and you're only seeing the good in him.

He was seen texting on a freezer, but you know it's false. How do you know this? Let me guess, he told you this? There's rarely smoke without fire, and I know that if I was working for someone, and a colleague was making allegations that were false to land me in trouble all hell would break loose.

Performance issues. He "only" didn't rotate some stock? Apart from the potential health implications, not rotating stocks (especially meats) could work out expensive in terms of wastage.

With regards to using his manager's password to see what float was in so he didn't run out of change? To be honest, I for one moment do not believe that and I would imagine that the area manager or whoever will see straight through the bullcrap. I can't believe that a supermarket would put themselves in a situation where tills are always running out of change. Again, I think that you want to believe it to be true - as you clearly think your son is a little angel.

You wonder why your area manager doesn't like your son? Well it sounds like he's just a headache. Wants to change his hours, using manager's passwords, not doing his job properly, requesting copies of his contract, wanting to take friend to a hearing, rumours of using mobile phone on the job etc etc. I wouldn't like him, he just sounds like too much hard work for too little return.

I also think that there is a lot your son isn't telling you. I bet the "performance" side of the disciplinary has a plethora of allegations from lateness, incorrect cashing-up procedures, poor stock rotations, slow service, etc etc.

Wow - Is is this Anhilator in another guise!:eek:
Proc

Sounds like

Let me guess

I for one moment do not believe that and I would imagine

I think that you

Well it sounds like

I also think that

I bet the

Too many assumptions and self opinions here - lets just see what the outcome of the hearing is eh?

I for one moment do not believe that

It is not for you to believe.

A poster has requested assistance, I have offered some information based on my past life as a Union Secretary so you can understand (maybe not) my defence of the kid.

Only the hearing can decide the outcome and if necessary, it may need to progress - let's wait and see.

Cut some slack here, what happened to innocent until proven guilty?

If you turn out to be correct then well done - you were right all along!

Thankfully you will not be conducting the hearing!

Hootie19

Thank you dpassmore. And another poster goes on ignore.

I don't mind straight talking, and forthright advice. But I couldn't see either of those in proc's post.

If they only knew the half of it, they'd wet themselves at the very notion that I think my son is a little angel!

bikerqueen

To clarify, he used the manager's log in details which he wasnt given formally but was aware of because the manager had typed the details in in front of him?

Proc

dpassmore wrote: »

Too many assumptions and self opinions here

Opinions on a forum? Who would have thought?

Hootie19

bikerqueen wrote: »

To clarify, he used the manager's log in details which he wasnt given formally but was aware of because the manager had typed the details in in front of him?

Yes, that's correct.

And the log in details have been changed, but the manager used the new details openly in front of my son today, so he now knows the new log in. He obviously won't use them, but how lax of the manager!

jdturk

Hootie19 wrote: »

Yes, that's correct.

And the log in details have been changed, but the manager used the new details openly in front of my son today, so he now knows the new log in. He obviously won't use them, but how lax of the manager!

Tbh I think that is a tenuous arguement, the manager isn't going to tell people to not look at the screen whilst he types it in is he?

Even if your son saw it as I said before he shouldn't just use the managers code.

jdx

jdturk wrote: »

Tbh I think that is a tenuous arguement, the manager isn't going to tell people to not look at the screen whilst he types it in is he?

Even if your son saw it as I said before he shouldn't just use the managers code.

I have to agree. Which means that he wasn't given 'permission' to use it. And because of that, they will make a point of that. Shame, if he had been authorised to use it, that would have been a different story.