Agricultural Occupancy Condition - Help please!

samual555

Hi

Would the clause below from a planning appeal of the farm nearby be helpful evidence to remove a AOC?

I accept that with a heard of about 120 cows, which calve all year around,
there is a functional need for a worker to be close on hand, day and night, to
deal with emergencies. However, that need is currently met by the appellant
himself living on site and being able to see and hear what is going on. If
another worker was needed out of hours, the appellant could call for
assistance, and a skilled worker could quickly be on hand if he lived within a
short travelling distance. The Council has submitted evidence of suitable and
available accommodation nearby, one house of which is within walking distance
and others of which are only a few minutes drive away. I take the view that

these properties would satisfy the functional need of the farm.

Many thanks

planning_officer

As requested, I've pm-ed you about this quote - but in short, no it doesn't help you at all - in fact, quite the opposite! The Appeal Inspector is saying that there was no need for an agricultural workers dwelling at the farm opposite as the dwelling you are looking at satisfies that need! I.e. your dwelling has a need to remain as an agricultural workers dwelling.

agworker

Well, we just went for it and bought our smallholding with AOC. I am loosely self employed in forestry related activity, so persuaded myself I comply - but I'm not sure it would stand up to rigorous inspection! The thing is the chap who converted this barn 20 years ago was a builder, so I dont know how he complied with the planning condition. It was advertised for 13 months before we bought it and at £260K is surely out of reach of agricultural workers (I know a farming couple looked at it but couldnt get a mortgage). The only reason we could buy it is because OH still works in business and I did until 5 years ago. I farm the 10ish acres, but you couldnt remotely call it a viable occupation!

At no stage of the purchase did we have to show anyone that we complied. Are there any consultants out there who specialise in removal? Be greatful for contact details so that I can plot a way forward to have it removed over the next 20 years!

treacleminer

I've just picked up this very useful thread. Especially the information about the Lawful Development Certificate. I wonder if this would apply in our case.
My mum lived in the ag-tied bungalow on our farm for 25 years until her death, aged 91. She was never involved in farming.
We are thinking of renting the bungalow out as a holiday let or shorthold tenancy, but have been advised we must get the agricultural tie removed.
Would we have a good case for a Lawful Development Certificate?

agtag

It is extremely important to understand the wording of the particular aoc... They do vary in wording and this means they also vary in meaning. For example; was your late mother the widow of someone who had complied with the condition? If widows are included in the occupany condition then potentially, in widowhood, your late mother complied with the condition and there was no breach. However, on occasion, widows are not included within the wording of the condition.

As a consequence, the wording of the condition needs to be very carefully compared with the circumstances which prevailed to identify whether or not there was a breach of the specific condition.

Of equal importance, if it is adduced that the condition had been breached for more than ten years but the property has subsequently been left vacant for a significant period of time since your late mother passed away, the breach could have been lost such and this could mean that any new occupant in breach of the condition could be perceived as a fresh breach of the condition with the ten year clock beginning to tick again.

The_Purrfect_One

My partner and I are either looking at renting or buying an ag tie property, both options being available, ag tie properties near us, seem to sit for ages and gradually get dropped in price because of the constraints, my partner is an ag engineer by trade so fits the criteria. The property we are looking at is a 1/3 less than it would be without the tie. We hope if we buy that in the future the ag tie maybe able to be removed, then we will have a good profit. It was built in 1986, another property we are looking at was built in 1996, anyone got any feedback on removal possibilties ?

planning_officer

Hmm not sure you're going about this the right way. Local Planning Authorities will strongly resists the removal of agricultutal occupancy conditions, so if you're buying such a dwelling to make a profit it's the wrong reason to buy the property. At my Council, an agricultural engineer would probably not meet the criteria to live there anyway, so do make sure before you buy.

Nobody can provide any realistic advice on removing ag ties. It depends on the demand for such properties in the area. Every area is different - if the Council keep receiving enquiries about such dwellings and new applications for them, then there is clearly a emand and you will not be able to get yours removed.

Ironically, if your partner does meet the ag tie criteria, then by buying the property and moving in you are demonstrating to the Council that there is a demand for the property with the ag tie - and for as long as you live there, the chances of getting the tie removed will therefore be pretty much zero.

Davesnave

The_Purrfect_One wrote: »

My partner and I are either looking at renting or buying an ag tie property, both options being available, ag tie properties near us, seem to sit for ages and gradually get dropped in price because of the constraints, my partner is an ag engineer by trade so fits the criteria. The property we are looking at is a 1/3 less than it would be without the tie. We hope if we buy that in the future the ag tie maybe able to be removed, then we will have a good profit. It was built in 1986, another property we are looking at was built in 1996, anyone got any feedback on removal possibilties ?

I agree with planning officer: an agricultural engineer is an engineer, not a person engaged in agriculture.

You don't say whether the property has any land attached to it, but if it has, I'd warn you that maintaining it in good condition is not something that comes cheaply either. If it isn't maintained, that reduces the value of your 'investment.'

People don't usually buy ag-tied places to make a profit. They normally do so because it's one way into smallholding that's affordable. Even then, one partner typically has to work outside agriculture in order to fund a modern lifestyle, because smallholdings, unless they are allied to a substantial business, won't do that.

GDB2222

On the other hand, provided you qualify for an ag tie property, it's a no-lose buying proposition, really. Even if you sell it at the discount as you buy it for, your mortgage payments are much lower as long as you live there. Plus there is some (apparently forlorn!) hope that the ag tie may be lifted at some stage.

By the way, what are the odds of the locals grassing you up if you don't meet the ag tie conditions?

Davesnave

GDB2222 wrote: »

On the other hand, provided you qualify for an ag tie property, it's a no-lose buying proposition, really. Even if you sell it at the discount as you buy it for, your mortgage payments are much lower as long as you live there. Plus there is some (apparently forlorn!) hope that the ag tie may be lifted at some stage.

By the way, what are the odds of the locals grassing you up if you don't meet the ag tie conditions?

No chance of being grassed-up where I am, unless you do something really outrageous, like both working in town all week and/or upsetting influential neighbours by siting a couple of pig arks at the end of their garden!

Plenty of abuse goes on; so much that my solicitor says the council really don't want to know. If it was all reported they couldn't handle it.

OTOH, mortgage payments will probably not be at an attractive interest rate, as many lenders aren't touching them, and those that do will want payment for the extra risk.