University degree not worth as much as touted

carolt

PasturesNew wrote: »

A funny thing happened today ... I had made some enquiries about a degree-level short course that sounded interesting and they phoned me about it. Got talking and I was told "You don't need this course, heck, you could TEACH it ..." five minutes later and they're setting up a meeting with me to be a guest speaker on some of their degree courses.

I have 2 O levels :P

That's so fantastic!

Well done you!!! :j

carolt

moggylover wrote: »

TBH Bendix - the amount of "intelligent" people at University when I was there was probably less than 1% of the 2% who went to Uni!;)

The bright ones were often those who had risen through the Grammar School system and were just too clever to be ignored when they applied for University. Many of the public school and private school entrants were no brighter than they are today, they were just primed and pushed in much the same way as they are today (and some of them got in on poor grades - mostly because a grant was being made by a member of their family) and they often paid us "lesser" mortals to do most of their course work for them so that they stood a chance of getting their degree!

There is little way, that I can see, of making education what it should be! It should be about the best and the brightest being nurtured because they are the people who may do something infinitely worthwhile at some stage in the future: and believe me, I do not mean get rich, I mean do something worthwhile.

However, those not meant for the greater academia should not then end up ignored or belittled! What I see wrong in our Society these days is that there is too much pressure to have a nation of Chiefs and no bl00dy Indians!!! We also need people who can actually DO things, and they are equally important to a balanced society. What is wrong with ours is that it has no balance, no mutual respect, and very little claim to even being a meritocracy as most who do things that are truly worthy of merit are undervalued and get little respect in a Society that is all about money!

However, even in my day, very few of the truly bright from my Uni days expected to get into extremely well paid jobs straight away. Those only went to the kids who had "connections" and the rest worked their way up (often from a long way down the ladder as they had no "experience") or turned to research either in the private sector or within the University and yet others went on to teach the subject they had excelled in.

Pretty much nothing has changed really - except that many of the youngsters now who would have gone on to College (often on courses paid for by employers on day and block release) instead go on to University and start life with a huge debt to worry about.

Great post.

I wish we had the respect and training for vocations that they have in other countries

I don't wan a plumber, say, with a degree, but I do want one with excellent training in plumbing. And if we could actually provide that instead of having to ship them in from abroad because our skills base is so low, we could have plumbers with secure eployment, great skills and happy customers.

Or whatever the sector is.

moggylover

donaldtramp wrote: »

Firstly good luck to your lad! I know a good few guys out of everyone I've met who were to become professional football or rugby players is huge. None of them made it. It aint easy.

Thank you, DS1 knows how hard it is, but he is a very determined young lad and has a flair which has already earned him some aclaim and since he has a very sensible "plan B" of his own devising I refuse point blank to crush his ambition before he has even had a chance to try:D

He has been described as the best little scrum half in the region by several who really do know their game and for all those that fall by the wayside, there are still some who make it! The very best bit about Welsh rugby is that it is not the preserve of private schools and offers equal opportunity to the gifted kid from a poor valleys family and those of doctors and lawyers;)




It would only be hard if you were thick I'm afraid. If you want difficulty try, Engineering, Chemistry, Physics, Medicine or Dentistry.
As for needing 18 straight As(or whatever) to get into sports science/arts and the likes. Give me a break. Most folk doing these courses are thick, without Labour's tertiary education revolution with all it's targets, creating thousands of places on nonsensical new degrees and lowering of education/exam standards they wouldn't have been allowed through the front door at old, proper unis.
GCSEs and Highers and A levels are so devalued these days they almost aren't worth paying attention to.

But we're all "equal" in Labour's new socialist state. There can be no failures and everyone must go to university. Even if they spend 4 years picking their nose to come out with degree certificates that true academics wouldn't wipe their backsides with.

I'm not going to arue (and never suggested needing 18 straight A's) because you obviously do not have a clue what you are waffling on about and it is more a rant than an intelligent posting.

Suffice it to say that the course is not an easy option, and those taking it are far from "thick" (although I am not for one moment going to suggest that DS1 could be a doctor or a scientist:D - that will be his brother:D).

Interestingly, he is also doing engineering at school and IS top of the class and loving it, so perhaps that is the direction that will take him onwards when he gets there.

And your speciality is? Apart from sour grapes that is:D

SingleSue

Really2 wrote: »

Most Dyslexic have good long term memory to get past the shortcoming of their working memory.
It can also be a by product of the part of the brain being used more (I beleive right)

I think if you asked most dyslexics they will usually have a great memory I can rember things back to being 2 years old in great detail. (it used to freak my fokes out relaying things they had virtually no recollection of.)

I think NDG and single Sue are both dyslexic (or is it sue's son) and they both will vouch for the memory thing.

Check it out on the net.

I have a form of dyslexia, the words swim about on the page when I am reading and when tired, the order I type letters in a word is awful. My eldest and middle sons have dyslexia too..the more normal type.

I had a photographic memory, came in blooming handy in my Chemistry O Level, I didn't have a scoobie about Chem, had pleaded with the teacher to let me drop it (I was only doing chem as I needed to do biology, physics was my real strength out of chem and physics) but he was having none of it. Ten mins before the exam, I was taking the pee out of a revision book, not really taking it in and woe and betide, the whole exam was about the bit where I had been taking the pee and I could remember every single little detail.

My memory applies to both words and numbers, numbers especially so but then being a leftie, my brain works differently.

Middle son has an atrocious short term memory due to brain damage (oxygen deprivation at birth) but an excellent long term one for weird stuff about bugs. He also forgets what to call a window or door and will sit there and either use a different word which has no relation to it or will try to describe what he means (the thing that lets light in, the thing people go through).

Eldest has the memory of an elephant but hasn't developed a photographic memory.

chucky

MissMoneypenny wrote: »

Don't think that by getting a child to Oxbridge that they are guaranteed a good job. I know an estate agent that went to private school and then did a BA at Cambridge. Yes, I know it is only a BA and not a BSc, but he graduated from Oxbridge.

this is so very true and exactly what i've been trying to say - those that think that going to a decent university and getting a degree is a guaranteed good career is clearly mistaken. it's an advantage but not as much as people think.

mitchaa

Kohoutek wrote: »

One very important way of comparing universities is by the quality of research they conducts. The Russell Group is a collective name for a group of universities that receive two thirds of all research funding in the UK. Basically, if you're got a 2:1 or better from one of these unis, you've got a good chance of securing a top job in your chosen profession.

University of Birmingham
University of Bristol
University of Cambridge
Cardiff University
University of Edinburgh
University of Glasgow
Imperial College London
King's College London, (University of London)
University College London, (University of London)
University of Leeds
University of Liverpool
London School of Economics, (University of London)
University of Manchester
Newcastle University
University of Nottingham
Queen's University Belfast
University of Oxford
University of Sheffield
University of Southampton
University of Warwick

University of Dundee for medical, ahead of Oxford/Cambridge

http://whichuniversitybest.blogspot....=1217654100000

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/University_of_Dundee

Really2

carolt wrote: »

As you say, everyone has limitations. To go back to the original topic, I think probably the most useful thing I learned during my degree was where my intellectual limitations were (and personal ones too). At school I'd never learned where they were because I'd never come up against them - university took me to my limits.

It's good to know what you can do, but also good to know what you can't.

I don't agree on the bold bit TBH as I never said it I said everyone has a defect .
Carol I personal believe anyone can do anything. It is how they are "wired" that makes the difference to how fast they learn or how it is processed.
I suppose my limitation you would think would be that I could never be an English teacher but if it was my passion and it was what I wanted to do I would achive It. It just don't give up if I fail once if I believe I can do it I will until proven otherwise.

But you could not say your limit was uni as that would of been your peak and your learning have peaked.
I bet you have learnt a lot more in your job than you ever did at Uni.
I think we have used the example of business studies before to all it really gives you no experience of running a business because a lot of running a business is picked up on the way by overcoming obstacles an picking up more and more people relationships as you go along.
I remember my A level business studies teacher and looking back there was no way that person had ever stepped in to a business. If that had been the limit of learning I could never see anyone succeed.

I think Degrees are great an teach people who need to learn specific things toward their chosen careers. But to be honest I can't think of any people who think that their peak of learning a career was before they started it.
Otherwise the easiest day at work would be the first.

As a breed we have developed to learn throughout our lives and just like you said about your cousin I am sure you could not do what he does unless trained so work based training should not be knocked.
Some people are late developers and may do qualifications later in life (most accountants train while at work because lets face it who at school thinks accountancy looks great )

So I would not class the degree as the golden egg in life, it still does not guarantee a good career unless you train towards something (but that is not far different to training to do something out side of uni).
It will not guarantee you are more intelligent than anyone without a degree.
It won't give you better common sense or better perception.

But finally and most importantly it does not make you a better person than anyone else, it should never be held as a torch of moral superiority.
It is recognition of what you have learnt and done at university and can be used to gain some degree related jobs.

But as a lot of entrepreneurs will show you it is usually an idea, who you know and how you can use others skills and your own that will make your break

We should never toss aside those who chose not to be academics to pursue other careers.
Bill Gates may finally have his degree but would he ever have been who he is now if he had not followed the path he did.
I may do one later in life but at the moment I do not feel it is going to be something that will hold me back TBH.

carolt

I think you totally misunderstood my post, Really.

I wasn't referring to knowledge or even skills, but innate abilities. Of course one continues learning throughtout life - in his late 80's my (non-university-educated) dad still regularly attends lectures and classes to expand his knowledge.

No, what I meant about knowing your limitations was positive - I feel comfortable knowing that there are areas where I will always struggle, and rather than wasting my time on them or getting upset about it, I'll ask for help in those areas. Or not push myself pointlessly towards something I'd be unlikely to be able to do well if at all. I don't disagree that most people can do most stuff if they really try hard - though I wouldn't agree anyone can do anything if they try hard enough; it's just not realistic - but knowing where you're likely to struggle helps you to make rational choices. My OH, for example, has mild dyslexia - his spelling is pants! - but analytically, I'd always ask him for advice, as he's much stronger than me. Likewise, he'll always ask me if he's writing something important and wants a quick spellcheck.

I suppose if you found your natural limits were pretty low, you might get upset about it? - but I don't really believe anyone falls into that category. I think everyone has unique strengths - and weaknesses. Playing to your strengths is just common sense. And much more enjoyable too.

And of course no-one would argue that having a degree makes you a 'better' person or guarantees a good job; it makes it easier to get some jobs and is essential for many jobs where a degree is a minimum requirement; not that those without degrees couldn't, in practice, do them just as well, but just that when selecting from a large pool of applicants, it's a quick way for a potential employer to sift the field. As I said, none of the jobs I do now would I have been given a second look at if I hadn't had a degree - my application would have been straight in the bin. That may not be fair at all, and quite possibly someone without a degree could be a stronger candidate, but it's the way of the world.

Really2

carolt wrote: »

No, what I meant about knowing your limitations was positive

I agree with most of what you said carol, but I believe you should never have a limit unless going past a certain point is going to hurt you.
Ingenuity will always find a way (well it does in my life) I am currently working on something I never thought I could/would do?
Personally I believe perceived limits are infact barriers, most people are scared of failing so once they fail they put up that as their "limit".
I never do that, and to give you an example if you were given your life again is there not areas you could have improved but have not because of various reasons (perhaps a better grade somewhere but the one you have is adequate).
There is nothing stopping you doing that now but your "limit" is self enforced (don't have the time etc.).

It is better to live without limits and learn to fail and try again.
Than to live with limits and never fail.

Most millionairs never make it on there first venture. Most people would have classed their limit as their first failure and all the hell that comes with it.

The ones who try again are the ones that make it (and sometimes lose it all and make it again)

To me limits are barriers, but that is just how I think, we all have our different comfort zones, and that is what makes us all different.

SingleSue

Really2 wrote: »

I don't agree on the bold bit TBH as I never said it I said everyone has a defect .
Carol I personal believe anyone can do anything. It is how they are "wired" that makes the difference to how fast they learn or how it is processed.
I suppose my limitation you would think would be that I could never be an English teacher but if it was my passion and it was what I wanted to do I would achive It. It just don't give up if I fail once if I believe I can do it I will until proven otherwise.

I have to agree with the above completely. My eldest son is dyslexic and had been written off as, well, completely stupid (even had one teacher say that when intelligence was handed out, my son was at the bottom of the pile).

He loves books, he loves writing but up until he started his GCSE's, was attaining scores more suited to a primary school child rather than one at senior school...but he WANTED to be able to write. Fast forward to now, he has picked up his predicted exam score from an E to a B, has been described as a talented writer (if a little dark and weird, think Jeffrey Deaver ) and has just been put in to do English Lit on top of English Langauge...something we never thought possible just 18 months ago.

It has taken an awful lot of hard work on his part to get there but he was determined to break the confines of dyslexia...and he has.

Mind you, I'm still disappointed he didn't go with his sciences for A levels, he is predicted A's in Chemistry and Physics and a B in Biology for GCSE!