Feed In Tariffs(FIT) Announced.

John_Pierpoint

Here is a presentation on what is involved in getting MCS certification.

http://www.solar-trade.org.uk/media/Obtaining%20MCS;%20the%20benefits,%20cost,%20implications%20and%20optimmum%20route...%20-%20Griff%20Thomas.pdf

Doc_N

Cardew wrote: »

I think we all are fully aware of the MCS accreditation, FITs and the proposals for renewable heat iniative next year. However you have totally missed the point.

The discussion was on the merits or demerits of the 7 or 10 year warranty schemes.

All firms make great play of panels have a 10 or 20 year warranty, but the industry standard is to give a 2 year warranty for the system - cables/electronics/mounts etc.

Some offer these offer 7 year or 10 year warranty with a third party as a form of reassurance, but the history of these firms gives cause for concern.

What happens if an inverter costing several hundred pounds fails after 5 years?

I'm not sure why you feel the need to be quite so aggressive, but if it makes you feel better..............

The discussion is, in fact, on anything people choose to discuss.

Several-year warranties aren't normally given because they'd add too much to the cost of installation - and because most people aren't that fussed.

Yes - an inverter can fail after five years, or two years for that matter. But then, so can a car costing just as much as a solar PV system, and they don't normally carry long warranties either - though they're much more likely to go wrong. As with a car, if the inverter fails you repair it or replace it.

John_Pierpoint

Yes but the only rational reason for producing electricity at 41.3 pence per unit, is as an investment. It makes no other sense when it is available from the grid at 5 - 15 pence per unit.
So if it is going to cost money and hassle to "service" the stuff on the roof (especially when you have to use a licensed technician) the investment case makes no sense.

This is all about getting carbon out of the grid and the size of the bribe we are being offered to do so.

It is a birt like the war time "Dig for Victory" campaign - we can all feel we are "doing our bit" however small.

craftymummy_2

Here are the details of a PV project we recently installed :-

a) customer outlay £16,00 includes VAT at 5% for a PV system comprising 18 modules producing 3.5 kW on a South facing roof near Derby. Wired in two strings to inverter. Everything to MCS standard . German equipment throughout so no quality issues. No quibble German Inverter guarantee for five years, additional five years insurance included in above price. Outlay includes full MCS paperwork, associated electrical installations including certification and Part P notification. (mains board upgrade , earthing etc etc )

b) Annual MINIMUM predicted return 2600 kW hrs at 41.3p is £ 1073.80 , guaranteed for 25 years so thats £26,845 . This excludes the export bonus with electrical supplier at 0.03 per kW hr so another £70 at least per year. It also excludes the reduction of imported electricity of between 25 and 40%. (lets say another £10 a month so £120 a year)
So a guaranteed return of £26,845 tax free , annual bonus on top of at least £70 for 25 years is £1750.00 , and an annual saving of around £120 on electricity imported over 25 years is at least £3000, being as imported prices will probably rise over 25 years .

(System been fitted two weeks and not peak weather yet but kW hrs allready 48% better than MCS prediction which will result in FIT of nearer £1600 PA for 25 years - customer estatic )

c) Small risk - An Inverter which is correctly sized and installed as per instructions MAY fail after ten years - big deal - a replacement will cost between £700 and £1300 at current prices, which will drop when demand settles, is therefore easily paid for with one years FIT.

Its a WIN WIN for customer . ( Or you can leave your £16 K in the bank and earn very little in interest and watch your import bills soar like everyone elses. )

The government also wins as reduced demand will result in less to spend on new power stations , the country is more likely to meet its CO2 targets and the penguins have some ice to dance on ..

Note to cardew : Poole and Bournemouth are in Dorset as opposed to the Which report rogues Ideal solar from Ringwood in Hampshire. Colchester is neither Hampshire or Dorset so are MCS installers in Poole and Bournemouth due an apology ?

Cardew

craftymummy wrote: »

Or you can leave your £16 K in the bank and earn very little in interest and watch your import bills soar like everyone elses.

Several points on your maths - which should increase your savings I believe.

1. You have not included in the calculations that the FITs are inflation linked so that would increase your return considerably.

2. You only get 3p for the exported electricity, not for all generated electricity, but the savings from increased prices for your imported electricity will greatly exceed this as electricity prices increase.

3. However on the other side £16,000 invested still earns a decent amount of interest. Nationwide are giving 4.75% on long term savings(3.8% after tax) so that after 25 years that £16,000 will have grown to £40,649.

After 25 years you will have £40,649 in the bank and what will be left strapped on a roof? - the FITs will then have stopped.

The calculations have been discussed at length in other threads and there is no doubt that at some point in time having PV will break even and then start to make a profit.

That break-even point cannot be determined as there are too many unknowns. Inflation rate, interest rates, future electricity prices, what repairs will be required, will panels on roof require cleaning regularly, fall off in output of panels etc etc.

The estimates for this break-even point are anything between 12 years and 20 years.

If you asked someone to invest £16,000 in a sure fire project that would take between 12 and 20 years to start making a profit, I suspect a lot of people wouldn't bother.


I am not saying that PV won't turn out to be a long term investment; merely making the point that it is very long term and not the sure fire investment that those with a vested interest argue.

craftymummy_2

After 25 years you will have £40,649 in the bank ..

...Which after inflation will probably be worth considerably less than £16 K is today without the other benefits.

PV
Unlike the rogues we both detest we are not having to try to sell solar PV. We have no salesmen, no cold callers, no advertising, no call centres, no leaflet drops and no interest in any of these things. Since being on the MCS website and Real site and Energy saving trust site we are getting at least two enquiries a day , every day. Our customers get us other customers and we do not have incentives or cash back schemes. We price every project ethically.
Solar PV sells itself.

solar thermal and heat pumps
We have around thirty customers we have encouraged to wait until later in the year before fitting solar thermal or heat pumps for them so that they reap the FIT benefits . We consider that trading in our customers best interest , not ours.

We have told two people recently that we would not install solar thermal at all for them based on their ages and water use which is not what some of the rogues would do. We know of an old lady who believes her streetlight helps heats her water at night due to some dodgy salesperson!

However we do live in Poole and although we have no connection with any of the rogue traders aforementioned we seem to have been cast in the same light , which is very unfair. There are at least six MCS companies in Poole and Bournemouth and none that I know deserve the bad image you have labelled us with.

Perhaps next time you can name the rogues after all Which magazine and the Daily Mail already have.

• Ideal Solar - Ringwood,Hants - apparently under REAL review
• Everest Double Glazing- from heaven knows where -apparently under REAL review
• Simplee Solar- Ceased trading years ago.

Cardew

Craftymummy,

What I sated was:

If you check some of the Solar firms operating from the Poole/Bournemouth area you will find that firms spring up from the ashes of other solar firms that have ceased trading.

Please note I said to 'check some of the firms' - that doesn't mean all firms.

You make a great play of a firm being in Ringwood in Hampshire instead of Poole/Bournemouth in Dorset. Well would you not consider Ringwood, at about 7 miles from Bournemouth, to be in the area? Ring up the trading standards office in Bournemouth if you want some details of complaints against firms in that area - or Google 'trading standards solar Bournemouth'.

I got a flyer today from a firm called 'Stay Warm' trading from Wimborne Dorset(which again is in the Poole Bournemouth area) Full of the usual garbage:

1. Save 12.5% VAT

2. looking for limited numbers of households to participate in solar monitoring. Participating household get a discount and could even get a full refund.

3. They supply a 'revolutionary energy saver fuel optimiser(with proven results) free of charge that will reduce central heating costs'

4. OAP's - we pay your VAT

paulbds

Hi, I have followed the thread as I am considering going down the Pv route.
I had a couple of guys come round, request a £2000 deposit(system quote was £12500) and said installation in a few weeks.
Like some previous posters I became a little spooked by the fact that they ma y not be around in a few years so have arranged for Tesco , via Mark group to provide a quote. If I decide to go ahead will get the Tesco points etcbut more importantly, be around in a few years time
Anyway, to come to my point: from what these 2 guys suggested was that the export rate of 3p per unit was negotiable and that some power companies are paying well in excess of this figure.
I am wondering if this was a bull***t sales pitch or has anyone else negotiated a higher figure.??

I am taking a long term view that energy prices, over the long term will rise and hedging my bets long term. Yes, it's a gamble.
Incidentally, the reason I started looking into this topic is I am having a kitchen makeover and looked at underfloor heating. Reading up on the subject led me to Solar PV and FiT's

Paul;)

zeupater

Hi

Well I'm starting to think abot the Tesco route too. It looks to me like a number of smaller local installers are in it to make a substantial 'quick buck' and then run for the hills and some large international concerns (of which one is only a couple of miles away) are only interested in commercial size installations unless there is a massive margin involved.

I've been in contact with a couple of local MCS registered installers, one of which came back with a rediculous quotation whilst maintaining that it was both 'competitive' and 'of superior quality', the other came around four weeks ago and promised a quote within a week, I'm still waiting ... seems like asking some relevant questions after the usual 'investment opportunity' and 'payback calculations' based on an 'anticipated' installation cost of '£x' convinced them that quoting an overinflated price was probably just not worthwhile, I might be wrong and they're just trying to negotiate a source of the illusive GTIs, but I'll not hold my breath.

The reference to the large international group is the result of a conversation with a senior manager who openly admitted that they would only be concentrating on the largest possible contracts where the profit value and not the overall margin percentage was their target, I was given a guide price for my installation which would actually lead me to DIY, save a fortune, and forget FITs altogether.

I don't know exactly what the quality and honesty requirements of the MCS registration scheme are, but to-date I'm not too impressed. If the government scheme isn't to be misused by overzealous installers there must be a more open and transparent scheme introduced possibly requiring a maximum £/kWp for installations at various sizes (with the obvious exceptions for complexity etc..)

The way I currently see it is it'll be a decision between getting a quote from Tesco to gain some form of continuity confidence, or waiting for the market to settle down for a while (and probably the prices too !!)

Sorry if this upsets any MCS installers, but this is the way I currently see it having only limited exposure to the current marketplace, but then again, I am only an average potential customer

I'll keep everyone informed of developments.


Regards
Zeupater

penrhyn

Tesco actually publish the cost of their Solar Water and Solar PV systems!
Hows an old cowhand going to make a buck now?
http://www.tescohomeefficiency.com/renewable-energy/

Back to the snake oil then.