Section 21 (1) (b) notice requiring posession issued at START of new tenancy?

DEBTMONKEY1A

Hi all,

Possibly worrying/flapping unecesarily (!) but have recently put down a bond & secured a lovely house for G/F & me (if you see some of my previous posts you'll see G/F was ill last year so moving away from our ultra noisy top floor town centre flat to a v.quiet country location is a real BONUS!)...G/F has been with same letting agent in the flat for 4 1/2 years (which I feel greatly helped with the speed of taking this new place...shes very quiet & always pays on time & place is v.clean!) & she renews her tennancy every 6 months-it's a shorthold assurred tenancy. At each renewal date she signs a 'Section 21 (1) (b) notice requiring posession' which has the possesion date at the end of the 6 months.

I'm guessing that

A)-It's a way for the Letting Agent to get their £59 'fee' every 6 months(!)
-It covers the landlord if they wish to take property back.

As i said, the Letting Agents have been very very good so far. We've been assurred the new place is owned by a lady who bought it to rent & they'd be no issue at all with renewing tennancy after 6 months if rent paid....etc (we'd hate to have to leave after only 6 months...again just me worrying I guess!).

Is this a usual procedure that Letting Agents follow? I'm assuming its obviously legal as it's issued when we sign for the keys at start of tennancy? (Having said that she's had this notice every 6 months for the last 4 years!).:) I'm fully aware that within the 6 months fixed term we can't be evicted ulness their are 'grounds' to do this.

Any feedback would be great!

neas

look up s21 sword of damocles.

Basically.. its legal what they've done.. but a bit nasty.. An S21 is used to take formal possession of a property... usually its supposed to be give so 2 months notice are provided before possession.

However if they give you it at start of tenancy.,.. they could (not the could) legally start proceedings to kick you out after that date.

Its a sneaky estate agent thing, that being said our estate agent give us one once as well.... we stayed there for a year + (when contract ended after 6 months).

Either way its not 'notice to leave'... in the sense we think.. they'd have to go to court to 'evict' you .. which would take another month or so. Some estate agents do it as general practice and in all honesty you should be ok.. if you are a good tenant... its when you r a bad tenant by giving you it early they can evict you 2 months quicker.

Either way its bad practice i disagree with... but i wouldn't get too worried about it.

Altho it does have a good benefit for you.. say after 6 months you wanted to vacate.. you could vacate on the date the s21 states and they couldn't chase you for anything... because they said 'i want you out on x date'.

DEBTMONKEY1A

Thanks Neas....will google it....think I'm just flapping as its our 1st joint tenancy & want it all to be ok...intend staying for a good while (I hope!).

Mischa

Hi, i just had a brief look online and found these two sites:
http://www.diylegals.co.uk/tenancy/section-21-notice/
http://www.legalcentre.co.uk/tenancy-agreements/section-21-notice/
They each have a little explanation at the bottom of the page of what a Section 21 Notice is and how/why it operates. I hope this is of some use to you. I think using the Section 21 Notice is standard practice for Landlords and nothing to worry about, it seems as though this is standard protocol for tenancy agreements when the tenancy agreement is about to expire.

DEBTMONKEY1A

Thanks Misha...will check them out. I can certainly see it from a landlord point of view....as I said my G/F has been issued with 8 of these over a 4 year period she's been in her flat...I think it's just what the letting agents do to secure things.

franklee

The section 21 is a notice letting you know the landlord wants possession of the property. Thing is if you get one every six months, and ignore it every six months because you know the landlord "doesn't really mean he wants you to leave", then on the one occasion when he really does want you to go you've blown your notice period as you didn't use it to arrange moving.

That this is only a problem for bad tenants is a myth the agent or landlord may promote but it's misleading as the S21 is a no fault notice and the landlord can action it regardless of a tenant's behaviour. On this forum we see good tenants evicted because the landlord wants to sell, to move a family member in, to reoccupy property themselves, or for any other reason. The problem with the routine precautionary service of the S21 notice, nicknamed "Sword of Damocles", is that the landlord may leave it as late as he likes to choose he really does want the tenant to go this time, catching the tenant who thought the notice was "just routine" by surprise.

The other thing a S21 does is to deter the tenant from staying on a periodic tenancy, forcing him to sign up to a new fixed term. This allows the agent to collect a nice fee for doing practically nothing. Do be aware if you go onto a periodic tenancy the S21 will remain in force meaning the landlord can apply to court for possession at any time with no need to serve you another two months notice.

The thing to do is to be aware of the S21 and make sure you can move in a hurry if necessary as you may waste the notice period not realising you should move. As said already, even if the landlord asks you to you do not need to move out at the end of the S21 notice period, but that may get messy and stressful as the landlord can then seek a possession order from the courts. You can go that route if necessary but it'll probably wreck your references.

See my sig should you want to know any more.

PS: To be valid a S21 must be served after the tenancy has started and after your deposit is protected in a tenancy deposit scheme.

DEBTMONKEY1A

Thanks for the info-very useful! On my G/F'S current tenancy she's had this issued every 6 months for the last 4 years! The letting agents have been very good. The property we've put the deposit on is perfect for us-good price & great location & bearing in mind I'm not working (& my credit references would be c**p!) & the fact that the letting agents have put them down as my previous landlord to help with references (I have just lived there for 2 years-agreement was in GF name but they turned a blind eye to this) & also the fact that my G/F has paid a HIGHER rent than the new place for the last 4 years it has made the whole process a lot easier especially as they know her. I've found out independently that the last 2 tenants stayed a long time & she bought the property just to let it (& the agency say she is desperate to let it-I saw rent go down £70 PCM as it had been on mkt for 4 months-3 weeks ago as it had been empty for 3 1/2 months she took it off the rental mkt to consider selling but had a change of heart).

Obviously we've put money down now & enjoy a good relationship with the letting agents so we don't want to jeopardize this. My gut feeling is we'll be fine...so I think it'd be best if 2 months before end of tenancy I drop a letter in in person referring to the S21 & asking for a new assured short hold tenancy (this is what they do-every 6 months you get a new 6 month tenancy-never goes to periodic rental) & ask then to reply in writing?

Also I read somewhere that if I & g/f put a time on the S21 when we sign & keys are given after that then the S21 is not enforceable??? Or is it the fact that if we sign the shorthold assured 6 month agreement AFTER we sign the S21 then it's also invalid? In some respects I'm hesitant to do that as it may look like we're trying to be a bit clever & as stated we do enjoy a good relationship with them.

Franklee-any other advice you could offer re: the points I've made?

franklee

To be valid the S21 must be served after the tenancy has started so you'd need to work out when that was, it would be hard to argue it started before you signed the tenancy agreement (which you can put a date and time of signature on) or before you were given keys. How to prove when you were given keys is another matter, you could sign the S21 as before key handover I guess.

Have you been given the prescribed information for the deposit protection yet? The deposit needs protecting before the S21 can be served.

I think you've a good plan in making sure the new agreement is signed two months before the old expires, that way you don't run out of time to arrange moving should the extension be declined. But really if you stop to consider things, if they agree to do this the S21 is of no use at all so there was no point in their having served it early in the first place! They could just serve it two months before the end once they know they want you to go and achieve the same thing. That shows what they are really trying to do is shorten or eliminate the notice they'd have to give you by having the S21 there in case the landlord wanted you to leave. Not a great way to treat you especially as your GF has been a good tenant with them for so long.

You could ask nicely if they'd forget serving the S21 as they know you are good tenants so you could feel more secure?

DEBTMONKEY1A

Hi! Yes.....we could ask them about the S21 but i feel it's their 'standard' practice....however unethical it is! What happened before with GF is that about 6 wks prior to tenancy finishing the LA would write to ask if we wanted another one. My gut feeling is that all will be fine but obviously it's good to know what's occurring!

I think if all ok at end of 6 months we'll try & get a 12 month tenancy & ask that the S21 is not served....but if they insist then to a degree they've got me by the balls!

The problem I suppose is that they're not doing anything illegal! As far as the bond goes....I'm pretty sure her old bond is protected & the new one will be (as we've already put money down) but will check.

franklee

Yes that's the thing they do have you by the balls, but at least you know that and can plan around it so hopefully it will work out.

theartfullodger

As franklee states...

PS: To be valid a S21 must be served after the tenancy has started and after your deposit is protected in a tenancy deposit scheme.

Two points from that...
a)When you sign a tenancy (say in agents office) and if you are given your own copy of that tenancy agreement, countersigned by Landlord (or agent on his behalf) you have ... a contract (probably... - might be a "deed" in some circumstances..).. IIRC only when you go back to the property and "take up possession" does the tenancy start. [Agent might try arguing that as your stuff is still all there that taking possession is unnecessary]. So signing/being given S.21 when signing tenancy probably results in invalid S.21.
b) Some say that for each new tenancy (clearly each time you re-sign there is a new tenancy..) you must be given (again..) all info on the deposit, where it is protected etc.. again.. (Housing Act 2004 sections 213 & 215 in particular..). Bit of a grey area this... so judge might decide deposit info not provided before S.21 issued so S.21 invalid...

Anyway.. even if S.21 is valid you don't have to leave at the expiry date (usually expiry date will be end date of your fixed term...) LL will need a court order... but you don't have to leave when your are given the court order... you can wait until the Bailiffs carry you out. (Recommend you leave anyway the day before..). Sadly most tenants just leave on date s.21 says.. If you stay to bitter end you probably have another 2-3 months, maybe more.. but you might not get a good reference!

Cheers!

Lodger (Landlord since 2000)