Definition of "loading"?

mitch352

Can anyone confirm whether or not the "loading or unloading" exception to stopping on double yellow lines applies to members of the public collecting items of post?
I thought it would but I received a PCN for stopping in a layby outside the sorting office. The layby has double yellow lines in it (but no kerb markings indicating loading restrictions).

Photos of PCN at
i50.tinypic.com/23i6znm.jpg
i47.tinypic.com/9qa5bo.jpg

This is the relevant layby:
i50.tinypic.com/e0q5go.jpg
Thanks

neilmcl

Well I can see straight away that those double yellows look a bit dodgy, could they be seen as unenforceable. Might be worth an appeal on that basis perhaps.

peter_the_piper

Wait for an expert on tickets as I don't believe the lines are sufficiently bad to get you off with this.

ScottishSapper

mitch352 wrote: »

Can anyone confirm whether or not the "loading or unloading" exception to stopping on double yellow lines applies to members of the public collecting items of post?

Thanks

I would say it does NOT. Personal experience, I deliver and collect 5 days a week in center of Glasgow and Edinburgh. Normally use escort van, no problems. Once in a while have to use the car (van off road etc). In Glasgow they give NO exceptions. Have been told either use blue badge (honest he said that!) or a van. One occassion left car less than 5 minutes, crossed road up 2 flights of stairs, collect package waiting and back to car, not only ws there a ticket but she was on radio to have car lifted! Tried appeal to City Council - rejected

arfurrrr

I drove onto a precinct in car , no loading unloading between 10am - 4pm

its was 9.45am i was going to the mini bank .

Copper stopped me , i told him i was unloading , "unloading the mini bank" . He laughed and told me to move on .

Coupon-mad

Here are the easy links, bay looks a bit narrow:

http://i50.tinypic.com/e0q5go.jpg

and here's the Coventry Council PCN front & back as posted by the OP:

http://i50.tinypic.com/e0q5go.jpg

http://i50.tinypic.com/23i6znm.jpg

I am not an expert but I would suggest there may possibly be a strong appeal point - if the wording on the back is not as it should be. It seems to me they have used the wrong wording 'within 14 days of the date of issue'. AFAIK (I could be wrong) they should not use the word 'within' in terms of how long you have to pay the reduced amount, and/or in terms of how long you have to lodge an appeal. And I have never seen a PCN which calls it the 'date of issue' as this PCN does on the back, it usually says 'date of service'?

If I were you I would register and start a new thread on pepipoo.com here as they have lots of PCN wording experts:

http://forums.pepipoo.com/index.php?showforum=30

I don't know about loading restrictions at all but the posters there will have advice for your appeal on any grounds they can see.

HTH

Coupon-mad

Oh, I just found this when searching for info on a known loading adjudication (namely a 'Jane Packer flowers case') which may help your understanding of your situation and your appeal:

http://www.parkingandtrafficappeals.gov.uk/user_documents/LOADADJ.pdf

To quote some relevant bits:
“In each of these cases the vehicle in question was observed by a Parking Attendant in apparent contravention of a parking restriction prohibiting parking on a yellow line or bay. There is, however , an exemption under each of the local Traffic Management Orders in identical terms. The relevant text reads as follows:
“No person shall cause or permit any vehicle to wait during the prescribed hours in any
restricted street except.......for so long as may be necessary for delivering or collecting goods or loading or unloading the vehicle at premises adjacent to the street”

MEANING OF “ GOODS”
“Goods” is defined in .Para 3(1) of the schedule as
“goods of any kind whether animate or inanimate and includes postal packets of any
description; and “delivering” and “collecting” in relation to any goods, include checking the
goods for the purpose of their delivery or collection”.


Now if Mitch352 were to email the Council for the Traffic Management Order for that street (as anyone can, anonymously and without having to wait nor request under FOI rules) and read to see what loading exemptions are on it...that would help you see if you have an appeal point here. Any queries, post about it on pepipoo as they are used to reading TMO's.

And to ScottishSapper, IMHO you would do well to join pepipoo and appeal the next ticket you get, with their help. I would suggest that the posters on there could possibly have helped you get off your tickets, your Council is pulling your proverbial - you do NOT have to have a van to be loading. I am a newbie on pepipoo and I have learnt that much!

ScottishSapper

Coupon-mad wrote: »

And to ScottishSapper, IMHO you would do well to join pepipoo and appeal the next ticket you get, with their help. I would suggest that the posters on there could possibly have helped you get off your tickets, your Council is pulling your proverbial - you do NOT have to have a van to be loading. I am a newbie on pepipoo and I have learnt that much!

Thanks, going to do a bit of research, hopefully will not need it again.
Main reason I did not take it further is the bay I normally use has a plate on it with the usual notice about restrictions but instead of stating 'goods vehicles' it also shows a pictogram of a 7.5t type veh.

Anihilator

An official at a council stated to me once their wardens are instructed to observe any vehicle for 5 minutes to see if any loading or unloading takes place. If not a ticket can be issued.

Parking to post an item isnt exactly loading or unloading I would suggest whether you do it in a van or not.

Coupon-mad

Anihilator wrote: »

An official at a council stated to me once their wardens are instructed to observe any vehicle for 5 minutes to see if any loading or unloading takes place. If not a ticket can be issued.

Parking to post an item isn't exactly loading or unloading I would suggest whether you do it in a van or not.

I would suggest you're wrong on the point in bold in this case, although if it had have been 'just' posting a letter I think you'd be right.

In this case, he was in fact collecting an item of post - which would be provable by the paper trail at the PO Sorting Office - i.e. they would have put a notice through his door telling him where to collect it from. Collecting a pre-arranged or ordered item counts as loading, I believe.

I think this is right, having read the linked info (where postal packets of ANY description are specifically mentioned) and going by other successfully appealed loading cases I have read on pepipoo. But I would suggest the OP posts over there for more experienced advice and in the meantime gets a copy of the relevant TMO from the Council, either by email or in person.

Coupon-mad

ScottishSapper wrote: »

Thanks, going to do a bit of research, hopefully will not need it again.
Main reason I did not take it further is the bay I normally use has a plate on it with the usual notice about restrictions but instead of stating 'goods vehicles' it also shows a pictogram of a 7.5t type veh.

As I understand things, it's not the plate or the lines that are the final word on a contravention - it's what the Traffic Management or Parking Places Order says that counts - along with the statutory regulations applicable.

Also many, many PCNs can be appealed on wording alone (i.e. small print being wrong, never mind if you were apparently 'bang to rights' at first glance!).

Anyhoo, hope mitch352 comes back and sees all this and gets off the PCN in due course!