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Ok, some facts about VB and Access;That is poor advice in every respect.
Rent-a-coder will get you an avalanche of desperate geeks from all over the world, mostly from India probably. Not that I've got anything against Indian programmers per se, but do you really want to try to get a system developed by a digit-head thousands of miles away who you can't meet face-to-face and who will probably have a very poor intuitive grasp of what your business is about? And as for support...
If the OP forsees a need for a 1,000-user system then what you say about technology would make sense, but from everything he's said I suspect he is needing a ONE user system. Why advocate expensive scalability when it isn't actually a requirement?
Why expensive? Because it will cost more to pay someone to develop his system using those technologies than in Access, and he will find it harder and more expensive to get support for it.
Memory leeks. (VB)
Single user. (Access)
Limited data file size. (Access)
Does not support powerful TSQL (Access)
Un-scalable. (Access)
Messy and loosely typed code (Access/VB)
As for rent a coder, you are far off the mark; I have been a member of the site for a couple of years and never had any issues. Sour grapes old man?Since when has the world of computer software design been about what people want? This is a simple question of evolution. The day is quickly coming when every knee will bow down to a silicon fist, and you will all beg your binary gods for mercy.0 -
Ok, some facts about VB and Access;
Memory leeks. (VB)
Single user. (Access)
Limited data file size. (Access)
Does not support powerful TSQL (Access)
Un-scalable. (Access)
Messy and loosely typed code (Access/VB)
As for rent a coder, you are far off the mark; I have been a member of the site for a couple of years and never had any issues. Sour grapes old man?
Nope.Memory leeks. (VB)
That'll come as a big surprise to the many people I know running multi-user Access systems.Single user. (Access)
True, it's 2Gb, which is probably about 1,000 times bigger than the OP needs. Of course, if he's got an issue with 2Gb, then he might also have an issue with the 4Gb maximum in SQL Server 2008 Express - or are you advocating that he spends £2,000 on the Standard Edition?Limited data file size. (Access)
True. There are thousands of other technologies it doesn't support either, are you going to list them all?Does not support powerful TSQL (Access)
Limited scalability. Well-designed applications can handle up to maybe 20 users, depending on the nature of the app. If that's not enough, then using/upscaling to SQL Server as the back end gives you scope for hundreds of users. But I think the OP only needs 1.Un-scalable. (Access)
It must be the way you write it.Messy and loosely typed code (Access/VB)
If you really wanted to highlight Access' Achilles heel, it's the propensity to corrupt the database if it isn't split (i.e. the application was implemented by an idiot), or if the network is flakey. These problems are easily avoided.
I've got nothing against SQL Server and C#, in fact they are excellent technologies and I've been working in SQL Server and T-SQL since before SQL Server existed (i.e. when it was Sybase), but the OP does not need a sledgehammer to crack his particular nut. Horses for courses.
I've never used rent-a-coder, I've no need to, as an independent database consultant I've been working flat out for years and right now, as usual, I have work in the pipeline for the forseeable future, all through networking, word-of-mouth and repeat business. An associate of mine did once try to use rent-a-coder as a buyer, the results were disappointing to say the least.Je suis Charlie.0 -
@Proliant: every programming language leaks of course as it depends on how the code is written. Some of the points you've made are, generally speaking, true but the main factor here is that SQL Server / C# is a bit excessive for the requirements in this instance.
Now I personally can't stand Access, I'm an SQL Server/.NET developer all the way and if this was a personal project for me, then I would use SQL Server/.NET as they are better technologies without a doubt - but that's because I know how to do it myself and wouldn't be paying anyone to do it. In this instance, it would not be worth the money for the OP to go down this route (does hurt me a bit to actually agree that Access the way to go!)
Regarding RentACoder, yes you could get something done for peanuts on there - that's the most annoying thing about that site, people quote ridiculously low money to do some work, get accepted and often bodge it.
@Bazster - it's not all desparate geeks on there! I occassionally put in (competitive, but realistic) bids for projects and make it clear I'm UK-based/technically proficient (with proof). Though it's very infrequently due to not being willing to develop an entire operating system for the equivalent of a couple of pints! (slight exaggeration
). Part of the fault with there being disappointing results is down to the buyer - if they think they can get quality for peanuts, then more fool them. But it's all too easy for them to think they can skimp.
Overall, for the OP I do think either something off-the-shelf, or Access is the way to go.0 -
@Proliant: every programming language leaks of course as it depends on how the code is written. Some of the points you've made are, generally speaking, true but the main factor here is that SQL Server / C# is a bit excessive for the requirements in this instance.
Now I personally can't stand Access, I'm an SQL Server/.NET developer all the way and if this was a personal project for me, then I would use SQL Server/.NET as they are better technologies without a doubt - but that's because I know how to do it myself and wouldn't be paying anyone to do it. In this instance, it would not be worth the money for the OP to go down this route (does hurt me a bit to actually agree that Access the way to go!)
Regarding RentACoder, yes you could get something done for peanuts on there - that's the most annoying thing about that site, people quote ridiculously low money to do some work, get accepted and often bodge it.
@Bazster - it's not all desparate geeks on there! I occassionally put in (competitive, but realistic) bids for projects and make it clear I'm UK-based/technically proficient (with proof). Though it's very infrequently due to not being willing to develop an entire operating system for the equivalent of a couple of pints! (slight exaggeration). Part of the fault with there being disappointing results is down to the buyer - if they think they can get quality for peanuts, then more fool them. But it's all too easy for them to think they can skimp.
Overall, for the OP I do think either something off-the-shelf, or Access is the way to go.
All very reasonable, ahillsy. In fact, I am trying to persuade more and more people to move away from desktop applications and into web applications utilising SQL Server and ASP.Net, given that these days straightforward web forms applications can be assembled pretty nearly as quickly as you could knock up, say, an Access front-end.
However, it's a case of horses for courses, there is no one-size-fits-all solution. Propellor heads whose only motivation is to play with their latest favourite technology instead of listening to what the customer needs and can afford remain the bane of the IT business and are the sole reason why a cynical old company director once bitterly told me (when I was trying to sell him a system): "I.T. is always expensive and late".
So, all my experience tells me (as it clearly does you also) that what the OP needs is a simple, cheap Access application. What he definitely doesn't need is an umpteen-layer dotnet solution with legions of stored procedures or thousands of classes spat out by some O/R-mapping monstrosity or any of the other cumbersome codswallop to which dotnet purists are so addicted.
Having said that, if I were putting in an Access solution for him, it would still have a SQL Server Express back-end. But, if he can find a competent, affordable person locally to him who will do an all-Access solution, that is clearly his best bet.Je suis Charlie.0 -
I have spent the last 18 months undoing the ASP.NET crap that was forced upon the company by some "new money" .NET developer and replaced the whole system with Win forms.All very reasonable, ahillsy. In fact, I am trying to persuade more and more people to move away from desktop applications and into web applications utilising SQL Server and ASP.Net, given that these days straightforward web forms applications can be assembled pretty nearly as quickly as you could knock up, say, an Access front-end.
Web solutions are ideal for large multi-site organizations as deployment is central, ASP has its flaws though.However, it's a case of horses for courses, there is no one-size-fits-all solution. Propellor heads whose only motivation is to play with their latest favourite technology instead of listening to what the customer needs and can afford remain the bane of the IT business and are the sole reason why a cynical old company director once bitterly told me (when I was trying to sell him a system): "I.T. is always expensive and late".
Using the correct technology is not the wrong thing to do?
So, as the business grows in time, the application will have to be re-written "properly" to cope with the business growth and needed function.So, all my experience tells me (as it clearly does you also) that what the OP needs is a simple, cheap Access application. What he definitely doesn't need is an umpteen-layer dotnet solution with legions of stored procedures or thousands of classes spat out by some O/R-mapping monstrosity or any of the other cumbersome codswallop to which dotnet purists are so addicted.
Fine as long as you build the business logic in to Stored Procedures and Functions and refrain from using in-line SQL in the front-end.Having said that, if I were putting in an Access solution for him, it would still have a SQL Server Express back-end. But, if he can find a competent, affordable person locally to him who will do an all-Access solution, that is clearly his best bet.
Since when has the world of computer software design been about what people want? This is a simple question of evolution. The day is quickly coming when every knee will bow down to a silicon fist, and you will all beg your binary gods for mercy.0 -
I have spent the last 18 months undoing the ASP.NET crap that was forced upon the company by some "new money" .NET developer and replaced the whole system with Win forms.
Which is fine if a desktop app is what you need, but not a lot of use if you want an online app.Web solutions are ideal for large multi-site organizations as deployment is central,
Or for solutions that you want to be on the web! I don't recommend ASP.Net because I like the technology, I recommend it when a web app is the best solution - and starting from there, ASP.Net is, IMNSHO, the best way to build web apps. If I felt that a large-scale desktop app was the right solution, then I'd recommend WinForms. For a small system that's needed quickly and cheaply and doesn't need to be on-line, then I'd recommend Access, usually with a SQL Server back-end.ASP has its flaws though.
Doesn't everything?Using the correct technology is not the wrong thing to do?
"Correct technology" is not an absolute, it's relative to the business need and budget.So, as the business grows in time, the application will have to be re-written "properly" to cope with the business growth and needed function.
I wish I had £100 for every time I've heard this one trotted out over the years.
Here's an imaginary conversation:
The prospect: "Mr. Developer, I need a database system, I need it next week, and I've only got £2,000."
The developer: "No can do, it'll have to be done 'properly'. That'll cost £100,000, and it'll take six months."
The prospect: "Oh hell, I'll have to wind up the business then".
Sometimes (in fact, usually), you simply gotta be quick, and you gotta be cheap. Very few businesses can afford to pay now to avoid a possible re-write in five years' time, when they've actually got no clue what their business needs will be then anyway. "Get it in, get it working, and if we have to throw it away in a few years, then so be it" is actually a philosophy that has a lot of merit.
You cannot put future-proofing ahead of the immediate business need. Most business neither want nor can afford such a purist attitude. One does one's best, but one has to compromise in the light of what is needed now and what can be afforded now.Je suis Charlie.0 -
OP -- please do not start trying to design and develop your own database in Access. Imagine if you needed a van for your business and people told you to go an auto breakers, buy a pile of parts to build and maintain your own van. Access is the breakers -- just a pile of parts and it takes a long time to figure out how to put the parts together.
Your job is to make your business run efficiently and profitably. You need business management software. You could buy Sage or another system. You could use an subscription based online system. You could outsource all or part of the task to a bookkeeping service. What's best for you? I don't know and neither does anyone else here in the Techie forum. You might find more suggestions in the Small Business forum -- the subject is covered frequently.
So leave the Techies behind, talk to Business Link, read small business magazines and websites. Buy what you need even if it costs more than you expected. Then concentrate on making your business thrive.0 -
I have spent the last 18 months undoing the ASP.NET crap that was forced upon the company by some "new money" .NET developer and replaced the whole system with Win forms.
Web solutions are ideal for large multi-site organizations as deployment is central, ASP has its flaws though.
That's down to a bad developer, not the technology of course. A bad developer is just as likely to make a poor WinForms app of course so it's not a reflection on the technology. After all, if a cowboy builder uses bricks to build a poorly built, unstable house....doesn't mean it's the fault of the bricks.
Web solutions are also suitable for small, single site organisations - saves maintaining all PCs with the latest version of the software as you just have it installed on the server, as well as giving greater scalability.
I'm not saying that WinForms is inappropriate in this situation, just that I don't think that's a fair representation of ASP.NET.
(P.S +1 for stance on inline SQL!)
Nice analogy. I agree, hence recommending buying an off-the-shelf solution - I'm sure there is something out there that would do the job.OP -- please do not start trying to design and develop your own database in Access. Imagine if you needed a van for your business and people told you to go an auto breakers, buy a pile of parts to build and maintain your own van. Access is the breakers -- just a pile of parts and it takes a long time to figure out how to put the parts together.0 -
oldtoolie, thanks for that, makes sense, out of all the jargon posted on here, Ive been completely blagged by it all!!!! And I wish ppl wouldnt assume im a man, im not!
Thanks for your input guys, but been to library for training guides on Access,its completely going over my head, need consultant to come see me about it and hopefully point me in the right direction for a suitable program which already exists or to write me a new one!
:T0 -
Still having problems!
Had someone who knows how to use Access try and do us a database with no luck! He gave up and tried an online database but that hasnt worked either! Its quite a simple database we need, just to record wages - thats it. And to be able to see where they have worked and how much we have paid them etc.
Is there any database, off the shelf type thing that we can build ourselves?
Tried Sage and is too big for what we need.0
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