Fraudulent use of cards with PIN - Can I get the money back?

MPH80

aldo wrote: »

Ref the whole Credit agreement act and if a debit or credit card were used, if the bank/card issuer can prove negligience then they are not entitled to refund any money back.

They really aren't in the circumstances of a credit card - this taken from the link in my original post which I linked to above.

The Banking Code says that if the consumer acts ‘without reasonable care’ and this causes losses, the consumer may be responsible for those losses. Acting ‘without reasonable care’ may mean not following the Code’s provisions about what to do to prevent fraud. The Code says that consumers should (among other things):

take care of cards, PINs and other security information;
learn PINs, passwords and other security information and not keep a written record of them; and
tell the card issuer as soon as a card is missing or stolen or if someone else knows the PIN, password or other security information.
Many firms’ terms and conditions broadly reflect the provisions of the Banking Code, by saying that a cardholder will be liable for the misuse of the card if that misuse is caused by the cardholder’s failure to take reasonable care. Previous editions of the Code used the term ‘gross negligence’ instead of ‘without reasonable care’. But the guidance notes issued with the Code say that the standard has not changed.

Some firms think that if cardholders were grossly negligent in their care of a card and/or PIN, then they can always be held liable for the full amount of any transactions made with that card by a fraudster. But that is not the case. There must be an appropriate provision in the card’s terms. The lack of care must have been the cause of the loss. And even then, the consumer’s liability may be limited if the card was used as a credit-token. If it was, the effect of the Consumer Credit Act 1974 is that:

Cardholders are liable for withdrawals that they have made (or that somebody acting as their agent has made).
Cardholders can be made liable to a maximum of £50 for losses arising from the use of the card when it was not in the possession of someone authorised to have it. (The Act does not say in what circumstances, but we will look to the card terms in each case.)
Cardholders can be made liable for losses arising from the use of the card by someone who has possession of it with the cardholder’s consent. (Again, the Act does not say in what circumstances.)
Cardholders are not liable at all after they have told the card issuer that the card has been lost or stolen.
These provisions cannot be excluded by the account terms.

INT1

MPH80 wrote: »

They really aren't in the circumstances of a credit card - this taken from the link in my original post which I linked to above.

True, but also in T+C's of a sampled credit card is this:

Sample credit card agreement

6. PROTECTING THE CARD

a)

You and any Additional Cardholder must take all reasonable

precautions to prevent the Card and the Card number, the
PIN, your password, any internet password and internet
identity number or any other security details for the Card or
Account from being misused or being used to commit fraud.
These precautions include:
i) sign the Card as soon as it is received and comply with any
security instructions;
ii)

take care of the Card and Card Security Details;

iii)

do not allow anyone else to have or use the Card;

iv) destroy any notification of the Card Security Details;
v)

do not write down the Card Security Details nor disclose

them to anyone else (other than any Additional Cardholder
permitted to use them) including the police and/or our staff;
vi) if you change your Card Security Details to make them more
memorable to you,

do not choose sequences of letters or

numbers that may be easy to guess;
vii)

do not tamper with the Card or Cheques;

viii)

do not keep your Cheques and Cards together;

ix) keep Card receipts securely and dispose of them carefully;
x) contact us about any

suspicious matter or problem regarding

the use of the Card at a terminal.

We may disclose to the

organisation that provides the terminal any information we
consider necessary to resolve any such

matter or problem;

xi) comply with any reasonable instructions that we give you about
the use and safekeeping of your Card and Card Security Details
(including how you choose your PIN);
xii)

co-operate with us and the police to recover losses, and to

investigate any unauthorised transactions. If you are advised to
report any unauthorised transactions to the police, you must do

so immediately and in any event within 7 days of being asked. If

you recover the Card or Cheques you must not use them and
should cut them into four or more pieces and dispose of them.
We may disclose to the police any information we reasonably

believe to be relevant.

If the bank/issuer can show that the PIN was used to authorise the transaction regardless if it is a Debit card or Credit card. The customer may be held liable.

It is worth noting that all institutions operate in a similar fashion and it all depends on the circumstances of each case.

This is why I would advise against the OP posting the outcome of this case. Threads like these can be used to give people ideas about making claims against their banks. If false claims are made it costs us genuine folk more as we pay the fraud losses through various means

nuclid

Great news if anyone is interested... we've just had the full £3300 that was stolen from our accounts fully refunded by the banks (debit and credit withdrawals).
The banks have been superb and actually quite supportive and seemed sympathetic about the PIN being disclosed. The Police too have been very good, but have not been able to identify the fraudster owing to poor CCTV footage.
In addition we even received a box of wine from one of the banks to apologise for some mishandling of the original investigation.
So for anyone else in a similar situation - don't just accept you are to blame if you disclose a PIN in a case of fraud - fight it.
Our contact with the Financial Ombudsman really helped - there are two test cases there that ruled in support of the customer. Thankfully we didn't have to go that far.
Thank you to anyone who posted something useful - it really helped.

MPH80

aldo wrote: »

True, but also in T+C's of a sampled credit card is this:



If the bank/issuer can show that the PIN was used to authorise the transaction regardless if it is a Debit card or Credit card. The customer may be held liable.

It is worth noting that all institutions operate in a similar fashion and it all depends on the circumstances of each case.

This is why I would advise against the OP posting the outcome of this case. Threads like these can be used to give people ideas about making claims against their banks. If false claims are made it costs us genuine folk more as we pay the fraud losses through various means


[/LEFT]

It doesn't matter what's in the T&Cs - the LAW (Consumer Credit Act) says different.

fawd1

nuclid wrote: »

Great news if anyone is interested... we've just had the full £3300 that was stolen from our accounts fully refunded by the banks (debit and credit withdrawals).
The banks have been superb and actually quite supportive and seemed sympathetic about the PIN being disclosed. The Police too have been very good, but have not been able to identify the fraudster owing to poor CCTV footage.
In addition we even received a box of wine from one of the banks to apologise for some mishandling of the original investigation.
So for anyone else in a similar situation - don't just accept you are to blame if you disclose a PIN in a case of fraud - fight it.
Our contact with the Financial Ombudsman really helped - there are two test cases there that ruled in support of the customer. Thankfully we didn't have to go that far.
Thank you to anyone who posted something useful - it really helped.

Great news! I was going to say, I had over a grand stolen from my debit card as two guys worked together to take down my pin number as I was withdrawing money (lord knows how I always cover it with my hand) and then they stole my card and literally minutes later took out the money. I reported it immediately and I think I had the money back in my account within something like 72 hours. I did luckily have the receipt from the withdrawal I had made and a crime number matching that time of theft (actually had a really lazy copper about ten metres from me who couldn't be bothered to run after the crooks!) Anyway, just to say you can get your money back. Yes banks try to make sure that you are as careful as possible re pin and cards but they do realise that no one is infallible!

mrbrightside842

If it was stolen from his workplace, does that mean it was someone who he works with?

ElkyElky

OP - Ensure your OH gets the relevant financial education he so deeply needs so this situation cannot happen again. Tattoo it on his arm if needed - "DO NOT REVEAL YOUR PIN TO ANYONE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES".

benoit

ElkyElky wrote: »

OP - Ensure your OH gets the relevant financial education he so deeply needs so this situation cannot happen again. Tattoo it on his arm if needed - "DO NOT REVEAL YOUR PIN TO ANYONE UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES".

He'll probably come home with the PIN number Tattood on his arm. LOL

nuclid

Really funny guys.
I guess you've never made a mistake.
It's funny how we would have said the same two weeks ago; but then in the heat of the moment, when at the point you realise something has been stolen and the adrenaline starts flowing and you're under pressure. When you're at work when you get an urgent call through and you've not got time to think because your job doesn't give you long coffee breaks and lunch hours. That logical part of the brain sometimes doesn't function normally under extreme stress.
Weird that... but hey... carry on assuming that my partner is the kind of person that would blurt out his PIN number at every social opportunity and that we're not the victims of a crime and that professional fraudsters are actaully 'professional' and very good at what they do and they don't strike when you're thinking normally but are good at exploiting situations designed to unbalance you.
Please - carry on putting up your side-spitting posts...
after all IT WON'T EVER HAPPEN TO YOU

ElkyElky

nuclid wrote: »

Really funny guys.
I guess you've never made a mistake.
It's funny how we would have said the same two weeks ago; but then in the heat of the moment, when at the point you realise something has been stolen and the adrenaline starts flowing and you're under pressure. When you're at work when you get an urgent call through and you've not got time to think because your job doesn't give you long coffee breaks and lunch hours. That logical part of the brain sometimes doesn't function normally under extreme stress.
Weird that... but hey... carry on assuming that my partner is the kind of person that would blurt out his PIN number at every social opportunity and that we're not the victims of a crime and that professional fraudsters are actaully 'professional' and very good at what they do and they don't strike when you're thinking normally but are good at exploiting situations designed to unbalance you.
Please - carry on putting up your side-spitting posts...
after all IT WON'T EVER HAPPEN TO YOU

Banks spend a lot of money advertising the fact that they'll never ask for your pin and that you must never reveal it. It's even written on your monthly statements.

If someone calls claiming to be from a bank and asks for the pin, surely the bells will start ringing, whatever your current situation may be.

You're absolutely right though, it will not ever happen to me, because I have enough common sense to tell me that the 4 digit number is the key that opens the door to my money, and by giving someone else that 4 digit number, they'll be able to open that door and help themselves to whatever they find.

You wouldn't give a burglar the keys to your home and car?