Am I being reasonable?

Peter_Friswell

The essence of the story is; I bought a good quality bathroom mirror from Bathstore for £200 and after only 18 months the backing on the mirror is starting to break away leaving a horrible brown area around the bottom edge.

Personally I believe a mirror under these circumstances should last a lot longer than 18 months so I wrote to BS (I have reprinted the correspondence below).

My questions to forum members are:
1/ Do you think that I am being reasonable in expecting the product to last longer than 18 months?
2/ Although I am not a lawyer I have successfully sued before in County Court, however If (subject to opinions on question 1) I do choose to go down that route I want to ensure I sue under the correct law. Should it be sale of Goods Act or the EU Directive 1999/44/EC?

All opinions gratefully received.

Peter

Below is a copy of the correspondence
****************
Dear Sirs

Re: Order No2459084 25/01/08 - Delivered March 2008 Item No 41800180060
Leo Bevelled & Illuminated mirror

In the last few weeks we have noticed that there is a fault at the
bottom of the mirror which can be seen from the attached photographs.

I am sure you will agree that such a fault is not in keeping with the
high quality of goods that consumers have come to expect from Bath Store
so I feel sure you will want to deal with this at no charge.

Is this something that can be repaired or will you need to supply us
with a completely new unit?

I look forward to hearing from you.

Peter Friswell
********************
Dear Mr Friswell

I acknowledge receipt of your e mail.

Upon discussing this issue with our technical team, we feel that the
mirror has been damaged due to moisture/steam damage, within the
bathroom environment, possibly due to the mirrors close proximity to the
sink.

Bathstore offer a 12 month warranty on all of our product, as you are
aware, this item is out of warranty, therefore we are not willing
replace under these terms.

However, should you wish to purchase a replacement, the store where you
placed your original order, will be happy to assist in this matter.

Or alternatively, if you provide me with the name of the store, I will
ask them to conatct you direct.

Kind regards

Pauls Davies
Customer Relations
Bathstore
*********************
Dear Paula

It's interesting to note that Bathstore does not recommend that its
mirrors should be used in bathroom environments. "Not fit for purpose"
is the phrase that comes to mind.

It's also interesting that you feel the mirror is too close to the sink.
Perhaps you would be kind enough to let me have a copy of the
instructions that come with this product which, no doubt, will clearly
state the product should not be used above a sink.

Are you aware of this legislation: Directive 1999/44/EC?

To cut to the chase; repair or replace this faulty product or I will sue
Bathstore through County Court. Not an idle threat - simply a statement
of intent.

I require your reply within 5 working days

Regards

Peter Friswell
**********************
Dear Mr Friswell

I write further to your email dated 12th January 2010.

I have assessed the details of your complaint and must confirm that the
information supplied to you concerning our warranty period by Paula
Davies is indeed correct. Your mirror has been supplied to you with a
warranty period of 12 months and this has now expired.

I have investigated the history of your mirror with our Technical Team
and they have confirmed that this mirror is a very popular and high
selling mirror and on occasions they have had problems highlighted to
them similar to one you have described. It can be caused by the possible
excessive level of condensation within the bathroom, possibly
insufficient extraction and if there is poor air flow around the mirror
it can leave moisture to penetrate.

Whilst I have no desire to be in dispute with you, I cannot agree to a
free of charge replacement being forthcoming however, as a gesture of
goodwill, I will arrange with our store to discount a replacement mirror
to half the product's value.

Should this be acceptable to you please let me know and I will make
arrangements for the store to contact you to place the order on the
system.

Please accept my apologies that you have had reason to be disappointed
with our product and I trust we can bring this matter to an amicable
conclusion.

Yours sincerely

Lynette Smith
********************
Dear Lynette

It's interesting that you admit this model has a history of problems similar to that I describe.

Under the legislation I have mentioned, your company's obligation are quite clear so I therefore reiterate; replace or renew or I will sue through County Court.

I require your reply within four working days.

Regards

Peter Friswell
*********************
Dear Mr Friswell

I write further to your email dated 13th January 2010.

I am aware of the Directive that you are quoting and must inform you that it is targeted at those EU member countries that do not have minimum rights for consumers. This does not have any real impact on the UK as far as consumer rights are concerned as they are protected by their statutory rights i.e. consumers have 6 years within which to pursue a contract claim. In the UK, as a minimum the sale of the goods must conform to the contract, meaning goods must be as described, fit for purpose and of satisfactory quality (i.e. not inherently faulty at the time of sale e.g. no error in design or manufacture). The onus is on the buyer to prove the goods supplied were defective.

With regard to the problem that you have with your mirror, to confirm, problems such as the one you have described have been reported to us, upon investigation, it has been due to environmental influences, as described in my earlier email that have been the cause. The mirror supplied to you is a popular bathroom mirror and if as you have suggested it had a ‘history’ of problems, then Bathstore as a business would not continue to keep this mirror in our portfolio.

I must confirm to you that our final position is, due to the fact that your mirror is out of warranty a free of charge replacement will not be forthcoming however, our previous offer of a replacement at half the recommended price is still available to you.

I recognise that this will not represent the answer that you require although I trust that you now understand the reasoning to reject your claim, a decision that was not taken lightly and one that I would not uphold if it was considered to be in any way remiss and contrary to your consumer rights.
Yours sincerely

Lynette Smith
Business Support Manager
**********************
Dear Lynette
Please will you provide me with the full company name and address that I should use in order to serve court papers.
Regards
Peter Friswell
****************************
Dear Mr Friswell
I write further to your email dated 14th January 2010.
Please address all Court Papers to myself at my address detailed below.
Whilst it remains a disappointment that we remain in dispute, I believe our efforts to provide a fair resolution to this matter, given that your mirror is out of warranty will ensure that any court would feel that the company had acted in a fair and reasonable manner.
My previous offer remains open for acceptance and I will await further developments and act accordingly.
Yours sincerely
Lynette Smith
Business Support Manager

Sol00

I think you are.

You've paid more than a lot of people would for a mirror, therefore, you'd expect it to last a lot longer than 18 months. A mirror of that cost should be able to withstand the moisture expected in a bathroom.

frannyann

So a bath store, selling mirrors for use in a bathroom, claim a £200 mirror is not suitable for bathroom use??

Yes you are!!

Anihilator

I dont think you are. 18 months down the line a 50% replacement seems fair.

The SOGA entitles you to a repair, replacement or refund (partial). If you take it to court this is all they have to offer and I am guessing they will just offer a low partial refund to get at you.

the 50% partial discount on the replacement if you intend to replace the mirror seems reasonable.

Its also worth noting you could be forced to prove it is inherently faulty or not fit for the purpose. Do you have any "mirror" experts?

neilmcl

I tend to agree. I think the remedy the Bathstore are offering is reasonable, although I'd be more inclined to ask for a proper partial refund rather than 50% off another one of their mirrors. As stated you would also have to prove that the mirror is indeed inherently faulty and that the fault wasn't caused by excessive steam or poor ventilation.

Also if you really want them to take you seriously I would stop quoting the EC directtive at them as if you know what you were talking about and refer to the Sale of Goods Act 1979 instead.

lolly_896

i personally believe you are well within your rights! 18 months for £200 i think not.

Will private message you now x

pmduk

Don't worry about anihilator's response, he's constitutionally incapable of agreeing with a customer. You bought a mirror from a specialist bathroom store. Providing you haven't ignored any instructions that came with the mirror, I'd expect such an expensive item to last a lot longer. (my 99p shaving mirror is now 6+ years old)

tbw

Its a mirror (and a pretty pricey one too!) sold by Bathstore for use in a bathroom. It is not unreasonable to expect it to last for many years if the quality matches the price paid. Bathrooms do get damp and steamy and suggesting that this is the cause of the failure is a bit daft. A mirror for a bathroom should be of a standard that will cope with some steam and I don't see how Bathstore can wriggle out of it by suggesting after the event that it can't cope with steam.

Why on earth should the OP accept 50% discount off another one (which may well be just as useless) - that would mean he'd paid a lot of money for just 18 months use.

For what its worth, I have a fairly small bathroom - toilet, sink and a double sized shower (no bath). Its got 2 windows (which are usually shut especially in winter) and a small extractor fan next to the shower. Inspite of the fan, the room gets very steamy when the shower is in use - windows and over sink mirror steam up and moisture condenses on the walls. The mirror is about 30" x 20" and was bought in Homebase about 5 years ago - I think it cost around £20 - and my Husband fitted a wooden frame to hold it on the wall. There has NEVER been any problem with the mirror. The mirror was bought as a replacement for a similar one which I had for around 12 years before there was any sign of deterioration.

Good luck with your claim - hopefully the Court will see the sense of expecting a bathroom mirror to be suitable for use in a bathroom!

pinkshoes

I bought a cheap mirror from B&Q for my bathroom (£14.99 I think...), and almost 3 years on it's still doing just fine, even after subjecting it to all that bathroom steam...

A £200 mirror should last MUCH longer than 18 months, and if it's not suitable for humid bathrooms, then it should say so on the guarantee!

I would perhaps phone your local trading standards to see what they say, and then go ahead and take them to the small claims court.

I think it's the 1979 Sale of Goods act you need to be quoting.

Tozer

OP - law is definitely on your side. It is reasonable to expect a mirror to last a very long period of time.

Bathstore will settle this out of court if you issue. They would be idiots to proceed.

Did you pay by credit card? If so, claim against your card issuer under s.75 Consumer Credit Act.

Valli

Peter_Friswell wrote: »

Upon discussing this issue with our technical team, we feel that the
mirror has been damaged due to moisture/steam damage, within the
bathroom environment, possibly due to the mirrors close proximity to the
sink.

:rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl::rotfl:
Who'd have thought it. A mirror in a bathroom getting damp.:rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes::rolleyes:

I have a cheapy Ikea mirror above the basin because I have a DS who wet shaves. And it steams up when we bathe or shower. And I've had it MUCH longer than that and it's fine. Mirrors are cold. Steam swirls round the room, hits a cold surface and condenses. So there is NO WAY a reasonable person could expect a mirror in a room where there will be steam and moisture to stay dry.

Hope you win!