Saga about a bank, enduring power of attorney and beyond

norse-storyteller

The following is posted for a friend and relates to UK people and a UK bank. Names have obviously been changed and have been chosen to fit the title i.e. saga. Gender, if used, has been assigned in accordance with the assumed gender of the norse characters and may or may not be that of the people around whom this saga is based.

In mid May 2007 an enduring power of attorney (EPOA) became effective for Thor. The next day Odin, one of the EPOA named attornies, presented the EPOA document to the Valhalla bank via its local high street branch (LHSB). The named attornies had the right to act severally ( on their own). Thor had several accounts with the Valhalla bank including two PEPs/ISAs. One PEP/ISA was managed by an office in Ragnarok and the other PEP/ISA was managed by an office in Asgard. If the management of the PEPs/ISAs by seperate offices is considered significant Odin has no recollection if its significance being pointed out whilst Thor was alive, Odin therefore considered the LHSB to be the front door and access point to all the Valhalla organisation.

When the EPOA was not acknowledged reasonably quickly over all Thor's accounts in the Valhalla bank Odin began a series of visits to the LHSB and made phone-calls to various Valhalla bank telephone numbers in an attempt to speed up the process. In August 2007 these visits etc culminated in a formal sit down meeting with the LHSB manager. The LHSB manager said he would chase up the matter.

Thor died in early September 2007 and at that time Odin still had not recieved acknowledgement of his authority over these PEPs/ISAs. The Ragnarok office acknowledged Odin's authority over 'their' PEP/ISA in a letter dated several days after Thor's death.

In response to various September 2007 letters and phonecalls the Asgard office managing the other PEP/ISA wrote to Odin, in mid September 2007, and mentioned the fact that they (would have) required sight of the EPOA before acknowledging or registering Odin's authority. Odin is of the opinion that this was the first time that this requirement was mentioned! It may be worth noting that the Ragnarok office accepted a copy of the EPOA forwarded from the LHSB and that this forwarded copy bares the date of receipt by the LHSB corresponding to Odin's presentation of that document in May 2007. Odin has a copy of this copy.

Thor's will passed everything to Loki, Loki was also the sole executor of Thor's will. Loki died in 2009. Loki's will names Magni and Balour as executors. Thor is the residuary legatee and principal beneficiary of Loki's will. Following Loki's death Odin discovered that Thor's Valhalla PEPs/ISAs were still open, still apparently in Thor's name and that they had lost a huge amount in value since Thor's death. Odin is not sure of what happened with regard to the administration of Thor's estate and does not, at the minute, want to get into that with Magni and Balour.
Your comments and thoughts are welcomed.

Nosht

Go to a lawyer & sue the bank.
Don't be put off or delay, enough time has passed already.


Regards,


N.

norse-storyteller

Sadly Odin has been advised that 'he' can not commence any action until the loss becomes 'his' i.e. Loki's estate is distributed and Loki's will is still in administration with probate not yet having been extracted.

Biggles

Bearing in mind the subsequent death of the executor, will it be possible to prove that he/she notified the bank of the death of the account-holder?

norse-storyteller

Odin had a formal sit down bereavement meeting in early September 2007 with the bank at which 'he' recollects presenting the death certificate. Odin also personally wrote to both the Asgard and Ragnarok offices informing them of the death, these letters were acknowledged. So Odin can prove that the offices knew of the death and 'he' thinks one of the Asgard letters mentions the above bereavement meeting, if that is the case then would that constitute proof that the Valhalla bank as a whole was officially notified of the death?

dunstonh

that they had lost a huge amount in value since Thor's death.

That has nothing to do with the administration though.

Forgive me I have i misread a bit as the post is not the easiest to follow. However, it was just regarding the PoA. Setting up the PoA would not have altered the investments. The first death would not have altered the investments either. They would have just been transferred in situ to the beneficiary. Second death wasnt an issue either as the investments which should have been in their name would be transferred in situ to the next beneficiary.

The person that has really failed in that is the executor of the estate for the first death for not getting it sorted. The bank may have been tardy on their admin but it purely an admin thing and not an issue that created financial loss.

norse-storyteller

I agree it is not the easiest to follow or write but I do not want to name names.

Odin's argument is that had the EPOA been acknowledged promptly i.e. whilst Thor was alive, Odin would have had the PEPs/ISAs closed and encashed into one of Thor's saving accounts, in Odin's opinion the PEPs/ISAs were not performing well and the news wasnt favourable to investments. If this had happened there would have been no subsequent collapse in the value. Would this argument not also circumvent the actions of the executor Loki

dunstonh

Odin would have had the PEPs/ISAs closed and encashed into one of Thor's saving accounts, in Odin's opinion the PEPs/ISAs were not performing well and the news wasnt favourable to investments. If this had happened there would have been no subsequent collapse in the value. Would this argument not also circumvent the actions of the executor Loki

Is there any evidence to suggest that any attempt was made to sell the investments?

Without any record of an attempt to sell/surrender, I wouldnt have high hopes. A later beneficiary could claim anything. So evidence is important. If there is evidence of this then there is a strong case to answer.

norse-storyteller

Hello Dunstonh, thanks for your comments and I agree with them, Odin has had similar thoughts too.

Sadly there is no evidence ( as in drafts of letters of instruction to the bank) of an "attempt to sell" as Odin believes/believed that 'he' was not in a position to issue such instructions until his authority was acknowledged and therefore had nothing drafted for the bank. BUT ...... I recollect 'he' has said that 'he' did 'spreadsheet' all of Thor's Valhalla accounts in an attempt to 'analyse' the performance of the PEPs/ISAs. I am not sure when this was done but I think it was prior too or during his time as an EPOA attorney for Thor. Whether Odin still has these spreadsheets on 'his' PC I do not know, I will ask, but would the date stamps on the files act as acceptable date stamps and proof of his monitoring these accounts? Truth be told Odin had forgotten about these spreadsheets and was reminded of them by friends with whom 'he' had discussed Thor's finances. Odin has also mentioned that 'he' had some discussions with a relative of 'his' about Thor's finances and there may be some written notes about this but in who's hand writing and whether these notes, if they exist, are dated, I do not know.

jamesd

Odin appears to have no current authority to act in this matter, not being an executor of Loki's estate and having lost that authority with the death of Thor. Magni and Balour seem to have a reasonably straighforward task since it's clear where the money is.

The dispute on sale would seem to involve evidence or the lack of it and the actions on the account where there was accepted authority to act may be the best evidence going. If there were substantial sales there then it seems reasonable to accept that as evidence that there would have been sales in the other place as well. Magni and Balour may wish to ask and authorise you to continue to act on this. If there were no sales then merely monitoring proves nothing and the best result may be a few hundred Pounds of recompense for administrative failings at a time when banks try to be as helpful as possible.

Meanwhile markets in general have been recovering and the matter may become moot if the bank involved is fortunate.

norse-storyteller

Thanks for the repsponse JamesD

"Odin appears to have no current authority to act in this matter" agreed, this does seem to be the case at the moment but when 'he' becomes the person to suffer a loss does 'he' then not become entitled to take action?
"since it's clear where the money is." uuuuummmmm the valuations Odin obtained in 2009 would seem to indicate that the PEPs/ISAs had lost more than £15,000 in VALUE since 'his' 'attorneyship' in 2007. I don't completely understand PEPs etc and what they contain but I recollect Odin mentioning numbers of shares and share prices or something similar in connection with these PEPs/ISAs so it may be that they do-not/did-not contain cash, if such a thing is possible
I am afraid I don't understand your talk of "accepted authority". The bone of contention between Odin and the bank will be that Odin's rightful authority over these accounts was NOT acknowledged/accepted whilst Thor was alive and Odin would further argue that the bank, beyond the LHSB, were not in the least bit helpful.
Thor is not sure if 'he' will get much help form either Magni or Balour in this matter and believes that these PEPs/ISAs will be encashed into Loki's estate before the estate is dispersed.

Just as a matter of interest what would be the tax situation if the contents etc of the PEPs were transferred to Odin?

I understand your position that "monitoring" may not be accepted as a proof of intended action, could you suggest a argument to counter its not being accepted as proof?