Forced to work unpaid extra hours - what rights do we have?

mark246

Hi

To cut a long story short, i work with four other people as mobile fitters for a large company. We cover a pretty large area which covers South Wales, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall. We work on the road and visit customer sites as part of our daily duties. The money isn't great, but the freedom is good, and the other guys we work with are nice.

Two years ago there were 8 of us carrying out the same job, covering the same area, but one year ago, management decided to cut four jobs to save money. This was a really bad move and not thought out at all.

Now the knock on effect of these cuts means that every day, the four of us remaining, now have to travel from anything up to 4 hours away to start work. We then have to carry out the job and then obviously get home. Most days each of us finish at a customers site around the 5 o clock mark and depending where we are working, this means that we might not return untill 8.30 pm some nights.

We have all worked at this company for a minimum of about 10 years. One chap has been there for 25 years. We are all on the same contract, which is for a 37.5 hour week, between 9 am and 5.30 pm. Our contract does say though to carry out work outside normal hours when necessary. Does this mean unpaid work? And what is an reasonable amount of unpaid work?

The company refuses to pay overtime during the week, however, if a customer agrees to pay for us to work on a weekend, then we will get paid at an hourly rate. Thing is, nobody wants to work on a weekend as we are all too tired and its a cheek as they don't pay overtime during the week! Our manager says that we have to it and if we refuse then we will get a disciplined.

Where do we stand when we are being asked to work outside of our contracted hours? Where would we stand if we refused to do it?

Bearing in mind the other week, one fitter travelled to Portsmouth leaving at 7AM, done his work, left Portsmouth at 2.30PM to then be phoned and told he had to go to Exeter that afternoon to do a job. Which took him about 2 hours to get to. He left Exeter at 6.30 and got home at 8.30 PM. Therefore he carried out 13 and a half hour day, 5 of which were unpaid. This is now becoming our normal days work.

The thing that really takes the mick is that all of the office staff work completely to the book, start at bang on 9AM and are leaving there desks at 5.30PM on the dot. Each stating that they have done their hours so they are off home.

None of us are in a union as no one is in a union at work. I dont know why that is, its just the case.

Is there any health and saftey breaches here anywhere or could we argue that the company is in breach of our contracts? Can we simply refuse to do any work after our 8 hours have been done each day and leave for home? Or if we had 8 hours of travelling a day just to arrive at the customers site, could we arrive at site, spend 10 minutes there, then leave for home? Where would we stand legally?

HR in our place are horrible, you really do not want to speak to any of them, If we do then our concerns are fed back to our manager and then life at work is not living really, so we don't bother.

Sorry for the long post but if any body could offer any advice then that would be great. The only other option is to leave the job i guess, but i would rather hang around to be made redundant to be honest and walk off with a payout after 15 years of service to them. I guess we are lucky to have a job in this market, but you do expect just a little respect these days.

Thanks in advance

Pete*G_4

are you an employee, or self-employed?

xmaslolly76

I dont know where you stand legally but i Co-ordinate a team of engineers all over the country they would down tools if our company didnt pay over time for their travel which like you can add 5-6 hrs on to their usual working day. Sorry not very helpful.

rupee99

There are certain safeguards in law, such as working time directive, minimum wage as you mention Health and Safety regulations, otherwise it is pretty much up to the custom and practice of what you are used to doing.

Essentially it appears that you are on a salaried contract and although it contains a standard number of hours it is usual for such employees to work extra "when necessary." If this becomes the norm rather than the exception your employer is being unreasonable and you have a right to refuse. Unfortunately there is no hard and fast rule there are examples one can cite where it is exceptional, e.g. having to work one or two hours extra in a month and others where it is clearly an abuse, e.g. having to work 75 hours a week without long enough breaks, deciding the cut-off will depend on a lot of different circumstances.

Over-riding considerations will be are the number of hours diluting your rate to below the minimum wage? Are you working more than 48 hours per week averaged out over the last 17 weeks? If so have you signed a derogation from the Working Time Regulations? Are you getting sufficient breaks?

All in all despite your excellent explanation of the situation it is difficult to get sufficient information across on an internet forum for a balanced answer, if you and your colleagues feel sufficiently aggrieved you might want to take advice from your union if you have one or a professional HR consultant if you don't.

borders_dude

Personally I thinik that if you dont like your job then why not look for another one? You clearly have issues with the daily duties!

ceridwen

borders_dude wrote: »

Personally I thinik that if you dont like your job then why not look for another one? You clearly have issues with the daily duties!

If jobs are apparently so plentiful (according to you) - then perhaps you could give OP some useful pointers on any you know of that he could apply for.

OP - My instant thought here as well is the Working Time Directive - that maximum averaged out 48 hour week (still one heck of a long workweek - but one place to start dealing with this).

Pete*G_4

if you are an employee (hence my previous question) then you have additional rights and protections under employmnent law. It is worth investigating whether your contract implicitly states you would not get paid etc. In all honesty you're best course of action is to give ACAS a quick call.

ceridwen

Here y'are:

http://www.tuc.org.uk/tuc/rights_main.cfm

You might find some useful info on this.

jdturk

I would say that 1 hours travelling at the beginning of the day and at the end of the day should be unpaid, any hours inbetween should be paid (except your lunch)

however if the business is struggling and hence why they got rid of the other 4 engineers it would be best to expect the worst. However there will come a time where you view your safety above your job.

Ladywriter1968

mark246 wrote: »

Hi

To cut a long story short, i work with four other people as mobile fitters for a large company. We cover a pretty large area which covers South Wales, Dorset, Devon and Cornwall. We work on the road and visit customer sites as part of our daily duties. The money isn't great, but the freedom is good, and the other guys we work with are nice.

Two years ago there were 8 of us carrying out the same job, covering the same area, but one year ago, management decided to cut four jobs to save money. This was a really bad move and not thought out at all.

Now the knock on effect of these cuts means that every day, the four of us remaining, now have to travel from anything up to 4 hours away to start work. We then have to carry out the job and then obviously get home. Most days each of us finish at a customers site around the 5 o clock mark and depending where we are working, this means that we might not return untill 8.30 pm some nights.

We have all worked at this company for a minimum of about 10 years. One chap has been there for 25 years. We are all on the same contract, which is for a 37.5 hour week, between 9 am and 5.30 pm. Our contract does say though to carry out work outside normal hours when necessary. Does this mean unpaid work? And what is an reasonable amount of unpaid work?

The company refuses to pay overtime during the week, however, if a customer agrees to pay for us to work on a weekend, then we will get paid at an hourly rate. Thing is, nobody wants to work on a weekend as we are all too tired and its a cheek as they don't pay overtime during the week! Our manager says that we have to it and if we refuse then we will get a disciplined.

Where do we stand when we are being asked to work outside of our contracted hours? Where would we stand if we refused to do it?

Bearing in mind the other week, one fitter travelled to Portsmouth leaving at 7AM, done his work, left Portsmouth at 2.30PM to then be phoned and told he had to go to Exeter that afternoon to do a job. Which took him about 2 hours to get to. He left Exeter at 6.30 and got home at 8.30 PM. Therefore he carried out 13 and a half hour day, 5 of which were unpaid. This is now becoming our normal days work.

The thing that really takes the mick is that all of the office staff work completely to the book, start at bang on 9AM and are leaving there desks at 5.30PM on the dot. Each stating that they have done their hours so they are off home.

None of us are in a union as no one is in a union at work. I dont know why that is, its just the case.

Is there any health and saftey breaches here anywhere or could we argue that the company is in breach of our contracts? Can we simply refuse to do any work after our 8 hours have been done each day and leave for home? Or if we had 8 hours of travelling a day just to arrive at the customers site, could we arrive at site, spend 10 minutes there, then leave for home? Where would we stand legally?

HR in our place are horrible, you really do not want to speak to any of them, If we do then our concerns are fed back to our manager and then life at work is not living really, so we don't bother.

Sorry for the long post but if any body could offer any advice then that would be great. The only other option is to leave the job i guess, but i would rather hang around to be made redundant to be honest and walk off with a payout after 15 years of service to them. I guess we are lucky to have a job in this market, but you do expect just a little respect these days.

Thanks in advance

Firstly, check and read your contract thoroughly to see what it states.

secondly, get in touch with Acas and ask them advice on this. As your employer could be breaking the law.

ACAS number: 0845 7474747/0207-396-0022

If the number above has changed now for acas as it was ages ago I turned to them, I am sure they have a site on-line if you just type in acas and uk or just ring direct enquiries up and get their number.

Acas got me extra weeks money before when the employer tried to con me out of it.

You should not be forced to work overtime for nothing, no one likes working for nothing really. If you say you don't mind working overtime for nothing then its different. Also I think that you should not be driving more then 8hr day now as that is classed as health and safety as well. My dad used to work very long hours years ago driving all over the country as truck driver and they brought in a law then that he could only do 8hrs I think it was and if he continued after the firm would be fined as he had a Taco I think it was called and they would check the mileage as well he had done and work it all out of the sheets every day.

So not being paid overtime, and making you drive for long hours is dangerous, I dont know all the laws but I believe they are breaking a few there.

Def ring up acas and tell them what you have told people on here, tell them the hours you are being made to drive and where etc, and about the non paid overtime, if you all stick together on this you could win, but be careful if you stand alone as you could be picked on by the supervisor if no one else says nothing and its only you who is sticking out. But by same time, you dont deserve to be treated like this.

mark246

Hi

Thanks for the replies.

We are all employed and all have the same contract. I'm not sure if we are classed as salaried, all i know is that we get X amount for 37.5 hours a week. With overtime being paid if we work weekends.

I have spoken to the other guys and starting today we are all going to "test the water" a bit. Each of us are all going to leave from home at 8AM each day and where ever we end up to at the end of the day, we are going to call in and leave at a suitable time which ensures that we return home for around 6.30PM. If we have a 3 and a half hour drive, then we will leave at 3 PM.

That way we are giving the company 2 hours unpaid travel time each day. Which surely if the situation ever went to a tribuneral, then that would be seen as sufficent?

The reality of this situation is, is that my employer needs to take 2 people off of the dole queue and give them jobs. We need at least 2 extra bodies and because the company is "cost saving", there is now loads of stress being placed upon the rest of us.

The biggest problem with the situation, is how somebody in our office can decide that at 3 PM it is ok to send one of us to a job, which means that we won't get home sometimes untill 9 or 10 PM on a night time.

Anyway, thanks again for the advice, it's nearly 8 so i better think about leaving.