For the love of the breed, or money?

Fire_Fox

Why is this degenerating into another witch hunt thread? The OP admitted she "may well be wrong" and accepted that "this may be quite normal practice".

charlies-aunt

:rolleyes: Go have a look - you will probably be pleasantly suprised.

My elest dd's MIL has about 20 dogs that she breeds from - large cottage with big enclosed garden -they sleep in outside (heated) kennels, but the old dogs live/sleep in the house. They have the run of the large secure garden during the day.

It sounds like a madhouse / unprofessional but she never has to advertise for buyers for her pups as her dogs and pups are a credit to her - all healthy, well socialised and sturdy. She does have a lot of dogs but they are well cared for and they are pets - she doesn't rehome them when they are past their breeding life, she keeps them as house dogs - a responsible breeder and very nice lady indeed :rolleyes:

Frugalista

Fire_Fox wrote: »

Why is this degenerating into another witch hunt thread? The OP admitted she "may well be wrong" and accepted that "this may be quite normal practice".

What???? Have posts been removed?

If the above is aimed at me :rolleyes: I have only asked why the OP has posted about the breeders in such a negative light?

She has posted that they "claim" and "purport" things and that she "can't see how they socialise and exercise them" (because she herself struggles with 3 dogs) and that the number of dogs/puppies "points of breeding for profit" and that she "can't imagine how they can all live in the house". I have merely pointed out that I (along with many other people) can, and do, live with that many dogs as pets in a normal household.

I am genuinely curious to know why she feels the way she does about them (given the information posted) and what things would make her feel more comfortable about them (or any other breeder she may approach). I have also asked if I was wrong about her attitude towards them.

As there are numerically more "Breeder Bashers" on this board than actual breed devotees, I would like to know what on earth makes her feel that these people are so shifty and what genuine breeders could do to reassure people who are seeking a good puppy :huh:. I did also say she should go with her gut instinct. This is, after all, a discussion board :whistle:.

And I'm not saying for one minute that these are necessarily good breeders - only that I cannot see why she is so negative about them . Maybe you should save your somewhat premature shrieks of "Witch Hunt" for them .

lostinrates

loobyloo2 wrote: »

I don't have dogs that I can't exercise.
Though snow, ice and a visiting dog for a month,rehomed from a show home, that has never been taught to sit, that cannot be let off the lead, and that has just been castrated, does make it that bit more difficult.
I am happy to keep walking and swimming my dogs each and every day, the visitor obviously cannot swim, so he goes out seperately.

Daily I walk our dogs (one was a show dog, one is, one is a never was) and 8 other show and working gun dogs. The show dogs that aren't mine not sitting isn't a problem....I agree though, sometimes there is a transition to training: why can't it be off the lead..training/breed?

ali-t

Frugalista wrote: »

What???? Have posts been removed?

If the above is aimed at me :rolleyes: I have only asked why the OP has posted about the breeders in such a negative light?

She has posted that they "claim" and "purport" things and that she "can't see how they socialise and exercise them" (because she herself struggles with 3 dogs) and that the number of dogs/puppies "points of breeding for profit" and that she "can't imagine how they can all live in the house". I have merely pointed out that I (along with many other people) can, and do, live with that many dogs as pets in a normal household.

I am genuinely curious to know why she feels the way she does about them (given the information posted) and what things would make her feel more comfortable about them (or any other breeder she may approach). I have also asked if I was wrong about her attitude towards them..

I read the OP's post very differently to you Frugalista but that may be because I have never bred dogs and have kept a maximum of 2 at any one time so read this solely as a dog buyer.

I read the post with the assumption that the OP wanted to ensure that she wouldn't be buying a dog from a BYB - which I felt was commendable. The usual how to spot a BYB tick list of things to look out for may have set warning bells ringing for her (lots of pups, both parents seen etc) so I assumed she was just wanting to check things out. Surely this is also commendable?

My assumptions have been proven wrong on many occassions though. :rotfl:

Frugalista

ali-t wrote: »

I read the OP's post very differently to you Frugalista but that may be because I have never bred dogs and have kept a maximum of 2 at any one time so read this solely as a dog buyer.

I read the post with the assumption that the OP wanted to ensure that she wouldn't be buying a dog from a BYB - which I felt was commendable. The usual how to spot a BYB tick list of things to look out for may have set warning bells ringing for her (lots of pups, both parents seen etc) so I assumed she was just wanting to check things out. Surely this is also commendable?

My assumptions have been proven wrong on many occassions though. :rotfl:

Absolutely 100%. I abhor BYB's as much as anyone. I also accept that I may have interpreted the post wrongly (which I did ask in my first reply) . Unfortunately, as the OP has not yet responded to either of my posts or the questions therein, we may never know which of us was on the right track .

Frugalista

ali-t wrote: »

The usual how to spot a BYB tick list of things to look out for may have set warning bells ringing for her (lots of pups, both parents seen etc) so I assumed she was just wanting to check things out.

Sorry for quoting you again (not picking on you, honest ) - but I felt if I just edited my post to clarify some points someone would accuse me of being shifty or something :rotfl:.

The thing is there weren't lots of pups - not now or over the past 12 years - there was an average of 10.42 pups per year split between 6 dogs - it hardly consitutes puppy farming does it!

Most "How to buy a Puppy" sources advise seeing both parents and many puppy purchasers mistakenly think there is something underhand if the father is not available on the breeders premises . Seems that you're damned if you do and damned if you don't.

That is why I ask what things do puppy buyers want to see from a good breeder? What reassures you that the breeders are genuine? Do show/trial wins make you feel more comfortable or is it just seeing up to date health certificates? How many dogs feel "right"? For example, only one female (and/or possible male) might indicate that this is a one-off accidental mating from an inexperienced owner, as opposed to dozens of dogs living outside and a constant supply of puppies, which may imply that this is a puppy farmer. What do you feel is reasonable? This is aimed at everyone not just ali-t :rotfl::rotfl:.

Mutter_2

This would be a starting point for the very beginner in searching for a pup IMHO.

Definately not this one, although I did meet a very nice dog from there recently. http://littlerascalsuk.com/component/option,com_frontpage/Itemid,1/

There is no interest in any one or two breeds, no history of showing and I would never purchase where there were more pups than buyers. Plus not all kennels like this have bred the dogs themselves but act as agents or middlemen.

I would prefer a kennel such as:
http://freespace.virgin.net/linda.trosnant/index.htm Picked at random as I have so many saved. But have a real interest in the breed, though maybe that paricular kennel doesn't "show", the family has had cockers since the 1930's.

Also something I would like to see is pups released at 10 weeks not 8, as I understand they would be even better off with mum and siblings for the extra time. I've not found a breeder who does that yet, more likely in other countries I believe.

5 Generation history. All health checks certified for the breed. Some insist on no breeding or taking abroad. Must come back to original kennel if unable to cope. Must go on a waiting list. One I've saved even asks if you want a pet or to show! A potential show dog could mean a long wait.

I think what happens in some minds is the profit that appears to be made from a litter.
So take six pups at an average sale of £725 each (dogs £50 less than girls) = £4350, sounds good. Divide by eight, the number weeks until collected = £543.75 pw before expenses.
If not a 24/7 job, at least on call for that time and someone needs to be home at all times.

If working on Min wage 12 hours per day, for 7 days, gross wage would be £504 pw , over eight weeks, £4032 gross. £39.75 less per week than breeding, but more time off.

Expenses include a lot extra food for Dam in pregnancy, weaning food for pups, vet bills and bedding.

I dare say in some cases expenses are tax deductible, though I think bearing in mind a girl should have no more than one litter per year, six in her lifetime, it can be no more than a hobby that pays for itself.

If taken seriously with say five females and licenced, would require a large property and grounds away from neighbours so more expense. Not to mention showing expenses.

The only real profit is in puppy farming, with a rescue such as many tears to pick up the pieces, but I won't even go there with that one!

loobyloo2

Thanks everyone for your posts on this,while I appreciate all the advice given so far, I don't want this to degenerate into an unpleasant thread.
I merely wished to find out from you all if my initial doubts were justified, or was I being naive.
I have looked further into the breeder since my first post and have decided not to continue my search for a puppy with them. I'm sure they may be lovely, but I can't meet with them which sets alarm bells ringing.
As I am doing this search for someone who does not have access to the internet, I am glad they asked me, as it has made me look into things I had previously not been aware of, ie: line breeding.
To clarify why I am not continuing with them

1. No visitors prior to whelping, so no chance to assess temperament/health of parents. Only once you have paid deposit and pups are 5 weeks old. Deposit non refundable.

2. Not transparent with prices, this is something I do not understand at all.

3. Working breed, spouts off on website about the history and ability, but does no training/competition/participation in this.

4. Many pups have been sent to U.S over the years, nothing wrong with that, but not something I could do, or like.

5. Found that the previous litters were quite small, so more litters than oiginally thought.

6. Although they probably do exercise the 9 dogs, when there are litters, and sometimes two litters at the same time, I don't see still, how it is physically possible to get them on a lead, take them for a decent walk, off lead running around the garden to me is not the same. Again, just my opinion.

On a positive note
They do hip scoring and eye tests on parents, and offer grooming advice on website, pups are innoculated and come with Petplan insurance.

I know they are not the worst breeders or I would not have looked at them in the first place, Oh, and as for the breed, I could not post that, it would be just as if I named the breeder(which I won't be doing) as it is a smaller breed in number, so therefore easy to find.

ali-t

Frugalista wrote: »

That is why I ask what things do puppy buyers want to see from a good breeder? What reassures you that the breeders are genuine? Do show/trial wins make you feel more comfortable or is it just seeing up to date health certificates? How many dogs feel "right"? For example, only one female (and/or possible male) might indicate that this is a one-off accidental mating from an inexperienced owner, as opposed to dozens of dogs living outside and a constant supply of puppies, which may imply that this is a puppy farmer. What do you feel is reasonable? This is aimed at everyone not just ali-t :rotfl::rotfl:.

Oi, are you picking on me? LOL. I think you have made some very good points and FWIW, in my experience people (myself included ) think a good breeder is what they are told a good breeder is.

From childhood my perception of good breeder/provider of dogs involved 'pedigrees' and KC reg. By the time I got my first dog this had extended to health testing, temprament and breed standard.

By the time I got my second dog it had extended further to include proven in a particular field e.g. show ring or working.

BUT, TBH as a pet home with no intention of showing or breeding, all I really need it a healthy dog that vaguely resembles what it is meant to and has an excellent temprament.

Frugalista, your post has got me thinking a lot about the validity of the standards that are presented to the public about a 'good dog' and a 'good breeder'. I feel that many of the standards were most valid in show and working circles but the internet has enabled many more people to access this thinking and these ticklists have become the gold standard or norm for finding a dog.

Personally I want a dog where I know its heritage, have a good idea about the temprament of the parents, looks a particular way and know what I am getting (within reason!).

I would be really interested to hear others views on this. at the least it will stop frugalista picking on me :rotfl:(joke!)