For the love of the breed, or money?

loobyloo2

I have been doing a little homework for a family I know, who wish to purchase a certain type of dog, rare, but not that rare.
They have found a breeder, a long way from where they live, who claims that all their dogs are first and foremost family pets. They have 9 dogs, and say they all live in the house with them,
6 of these are the breed I am looking into.
Now, after a little trawling, I have found that over the last 12 years, they have produced 125 puppies of this breed, and spent the previous 15 years with another highly desireable breed (expensive in other words). I found the 125 puppies with their kennel affix on the breed club register.
Now, they purport to be just dog lovers, with the intention of only producing dogs with a good temperament and good health, I on the other hand, seem to think that this number of puppies (and adults)is more likely to point to breeding for profit, though I may well be wrong.
So..........Do I go with my instinct and advise not to purchase from them, because by waiting a while longer, another hobby breeder may have a puppy for them, or am I being naive, because this may be a quite normal practice?
I have only ever bought one dog (others have been rescues), and I was lucky that it came from someone who had spent several months searching for the right sire, ended up Europe, and I wasn't charged ridiculous money, even though they would havespent a fortune on getting the litter.
Any thoughts anyone Thanks

ali-t

Do they health test the parents and are the health test results indicative of good health. Are they brreding their own dogs and !!!!!es i.e convenience litters rather than seeking out great matches for their breeding programme.

If they have currently 6 dogs of your chosen breed and it is a breed with large litters (i.e. 10-12) then it is feasible that each dog has had 2 litters and there has been a litter every second year (I think!). TBH I could be inclined to meet them and see what I thought after that but if you have a gut instinct that says no, then don't go there.

trudij

I know very little about breeding dogs - but to be honest, 125 of a certain breed (whatever it is!) in 12 years (when you have 6 of the breed!) doesnt strike me as breeding "for profit" bearing in mind that its nowhere near as lucrative as people think....

Id want to go there and meet them though - maybe arrive early if you are worried that they would bring them into the house just for the visit??

loobyloo2

Hi, Just checked, the average litter size is between 4 and 10.
The resident dogs are bred to the b*****s, so no, no looking for studs outside of their own.
I just find it hard to imagine these all live in the house as they are classed as large breeds.
I also can't see how they can all be socialised properly, or excercised.
I have 2 of my own, and a third visiting me for a month, and find it quite difficult to exercise each of them adequately.
I don't know, it just doesn't sit comfortably with me, the amount of puppies they have produced while insisting they are 'pets'.

loobyloo2

Ali sorry, forgot to say, yes they are health checked.

Lobell

125 puppies over 12 years in itself wouldn't overly concern me as long as they were from 4 or more b1tches (ie. no more than 3 litters per b1tch at an absolute maximum). If it's a breed that averages 10 per litter, then that's only roughly a litter per year.

I know someone who has produced 42 pups in 3 litters...the only 3 litters she has ever bred in 20 years of owning the breed...just happened to be very big litters.

I would judge more based on things like:
- do they do anything with their dogs? Like working/showing/agility etc
- are they members of a constituted breed club?
- do they do all the necessary health tests for the breed?

In the numerically smaller breeds, it's generally more acceptable to breed a litter with the intention of not necessarily keeping a pup back as it helps to keep the breed afloat....as long as the breeding is done ethically and responsibly and there is demand for the pups.

Lobell

loobyloo2 wrote: »

Hi, Just checked, the average litter size is between 4 and 10.
The resident dogs are bred to the b*****s, so no, no looking for studs outside of their own.
I just find it hard to imagine these all live in the house as they are classed as large breeds.
I also can't see how they can all be socialised properly, or excercised.
I have 2 of my own, and a third visiting me for a month, and find it quite difficult to exercise each of them adequately.
I don't know, it just doesn't sit comfortably with me, the amount of puppies they have produced while insisting they are 'pets'.

Sorry, hadn't seen this post when I posted.

Now, the only breeding with resident studs would ring slight alarm bells with me. I would ask why they selected the studs they did and then jusdge from the answer. Someone who is line breeding with a purpose in mind will bore you to death with the history of the lines, the faults they want to improve on and the finer points of the great-great-great-grandparent that they are hoping to bring through in the pairing

The number of large breeds living in the home doesn't concern me either. I have a giant breed and owning 5 or 6, living in the house, isn't at all uncommon. I also know a breeder of a large gundog breed - she has 12 at any given time, all living in the house. She's also one of the best breeders I know and her dogs are her life.

The people to whom ou refer may not be the very best breeders in the world but they sound far from being the worst too. That said, if there is anything about them at all that makes you doubt them, then walk away and look elsewhere I have done just that recently. Always trust your instincts and you won't go far wrong

lostinrates

We have had lots of giants living in the house, and in an outdoor kennel Its not a huge number to breed really. How many litters are from each girl, that will give an idea of welfare for them.

Also, some bought in dogs are given the breeder's stud name as an affix: or litters are planned to give a useable stud or girl to develop certain lines. Its a concern that they are not using other dogs, but it might be one with an answer: its certainly a question to ask, and perhaps not just with the breeder. What have the dogs done, besides breeding, if they work, are they proven? If they show, what success do they have? What are the relevent health results? ...Its not as easy as calculating on number of dogs, sadly, if it were there would be a lot fewer problems!

Frugalista

I read this post with absolute incredulity :shocked:!! These breeders have dedicated 15 years to one breed and a further 12 to another breed and you find that suspect!! Why?? I don’t understand your thinking there - are they not allowed to change to another breed? You don’t state what the 2 breeds are (what are they?) but maybe their lifestyle/finances/health, etc, etc caused them to make that choice. Maybe, as they are getting older they find the second breed easier to cope with. Maybe, after 15 years in the one breed they simply fancied a change or a new challenge.

It is very common in the show world for people to switch to a different breed after many years specialising in another (I appreciate that you don’t know if they show or not - just giving an example). I have had my chosen breed for 30 years now - but there are a few other breeds I wouldn’t mind having - and maybe I will in the future.

You say they “claim that that all their dogs are first and foremost family pets. They have 9 dogs, and say they all live in the house with them“ and that “they purport to be just dog lovers, with the intention of only producing dogs with a good temperament and good health” - I find it really, really sad that you have such a low opinion of these people with practically no evidence that they are anything other than what they say. Whilst I wholeheartedly applaud you for doing your research, it does seem that you have already made up your mind that these people are up to no good :rolleyes:. What more do you want them to do (genuine question)? What do you perceive a reputable breeder to be/do? :huh:

I also have 9 large, hairy, bouncy dogs who live in my very small cottage with me - that is not a claim - that is a fact. Yes, they are/were show dogs (the majority of them are Champions), all have had the relevant health checks and have been bred from in the past (well, 4 of them have) - but like the breeders in your post, they are my pets above anything :smileyhea. Even the most dedicated show goers don’t exhibit their dogs every weekend - and there is a “show season”. Mine are show dogs approximately 24 days out of 364 days a year. What do you think these dogs do between shows - they don’t walk around with a tiara on their heads - they are just my normal, family pets doing normal doggy things. Why else would I choose to live with them all if I didn’t love them all as my pets on a day to day basis . Oh! And they are all extremely well socialised and exercised - it just takes a little more time, organisation and dedication. It’s the people who say they can’t cope with one or two dogs who I wonder about.

And then there is your opinion on their “excessive” breeding from their health checked stock. 125 puppies over 12 years is 10.42 puppies per year out of a possible 6 dogs - and you think that points to breeding for profit????? :huh: You’re not really serious are you??? :rotfl::rotfl:

The only thing I am a little doubtful about is the not using outside studs (do you know this for a fact?) - but as other posters have pointed out, this could easily be explained. There is an internationally famous and successful toy breed kennel who never used outside studs but introduced new lines via new females and puppies by their stud dogs to outside females. It’s a little unusual but can be done. Unfortunately, to the average person, the art of breeding any sort of livestock can appear somewhat mysterious.

However, I think for the sake of all parties concerned that you should look elsewhere. It appears that these people are not good enough in your eyes no matter what. And I absolutely agree with going with your gut instinct. Though it would have been interesting to see if your friends actually fitted their criteria for owning one of their puppies :rolleyes:. It cuts both ways .

Don’t get me wrong - there is nothing wrong with you having high standards, so long as they are realistic :rolleyes: - but I would be absolutely livid if you tried to imply that my dogs were ‘unsocialised, under exercised, breeding machines, abandoned to an outside shed’ simply because I happen to own 9 of them and have had the occasional litter from them :mad::mad:. Hmmm, maybe that is exactly what you are implying :think:.

So, in your opinion, how many (or should that be how few) dogs should anyone own to be considered a respectable hobby breeder and worthy of someone deigning to purchase a pup from you? As far as I can see, this seems to be the main issue for you with them - that they have the temerity to own a number of dogs?? Or have I got this totally wrong??

MsAnderson

"I have 2 of my own, and a third visiting me for a month, and find it quite difficult to exercise each of them adequately."

Why do you have dogs that you can't exercise?

loobyloo2

MsAnderson wrote: »

"I have 2 of my own, and a third visiting me for a month, and find it quite difficult to exercise each of them adequately."

Why do you have dogs that you can't exercise?

I don't have dogs that I can't exercise.
Though snow, ice and a visiting dog for a month,rehomed from a show home, that has never been taught to sit, that cannot be let off the lead, and that has just been castrated, does make it that bit more difficult.
I am happy to keep walking and swimming my dogs each and every day, the visitor obviously cannot swim, so he goes out seperately.