Asked to pay contribution to fire detection system

mcchalk

I'm annoyed because as far as i can see and all the other people that live there this doesnt need doing. its only 3 levels. You could jump that and not so much as hurt a finger! Also with it only being 5 years old i'm annoyed that this was not seen as a problem before. are you telling that fire has chaged in 5 years and before there was no need but now they are out of control? Its the same as before only safety officers trying to wrap everything up!

lincroft1710

You could jump that and not so much as hurt a finger

But probably break every other bone in your body!! The bottom of a window of a 3 storey building would be a minimum of 20ft/6m from the ground.

Doozergirl

As it stands, you have a managing agent. For work less than £250 they do not need to consult you. As far as they are concerned, they will make you pay for something if they think it covers their backs as they are the ones presently responsible for fire safety - plus they want to make money as well so that means 'doing stuff' and making you pay for it.

The only way I see to avoid is to take the Right to Manage as a block and therefore decide as a block what you think is adequate. I agree with you that at five years old the fire doors and fireproofing within levels should provide enough of a block until the fire brigade arrive but if the managing agent see fit as to install alarms, it's currently their perogative to do so.

Have a look for the Leaseholder Right to Manage on the same website that Fire Fox has linked to. A block of 15 would not be easy to manage alone though - you might need an agent unless you have a militant for a neighbour, but at least you could argue with that one.

Fire_Fox

mcchalk wrote: »

I'm annoyed because as far as i can see and all the other people that live there this doesnt need doing. its only 3 levels. You could jump that and not so much as hurt a finger! Also with it only being 5 years old i'm annoyed that this was not seen as a problem before. are you telling that fire has chaged in 5 years and before there was no need but now they are out of control? Its the same as before only safety officers trying to wrap everything up!

Fire regs seem to change every year - our management company keeps on buying new fire extinguishers and threatening to condemn our lift (£15K per flat, ouch). Technology also changes constantly, computer modelling of what would happen in an emergency situation has no doubt progressed in five years.

You could view the situation as elfin safety gone mad, or you could think how awful it would be if everything bar the clothes you stood up in went up in smoke. This decision has (hopefully) been made by a group of people who have decades of experience in fire safety, they know better than you or I. No infant or elderly person could jump out of a third floor window unscathed.

It's £170 not £1700, pick your battles. I'd be a lot more interested in what they are spending £17.5K a year on, given that the place is only five years old and Housing Associations shouldn't be profiteering like private management companies. Do you have a lift, concierge service, gym, grounds and car parks? Is this London?

mcchalk

It's in a little town called Bingley and we don't have a lift or anything. The bottom 2 floors are rented by the housing Association so I guess they will be paying there part. We all think we pay to much service charge but not sure what we can do. When I have tried to challange I looked into getting a tribunal to price it but it would cost me around £200+. And with the bottom 2 floors being rented they wouldn't want to pay for it as they don't pay a service charge anyway. I hate the place and can't wait to sell.

Fire_Fox

mcchalk wrote: »

It's in a little town called Bingley and we don't have a lift or anything. The bottom 2 floors are rented by the housing Association so I guess they will be paying there part. We all think we pay to much service charge but not sure what we can do. When I have tried to challange I looked into getting a tribunal to price it but it would cost me around £200+. And with the bottom 2 floors being rented they wouldn't want to pay for it as they don't pay a service charge anyway. I hate the place and can't wait to sell.

Bingley in Yorkshire? If so I can PM you some fairly local service charge prices. You don't initially need to go to an LVT, read the service charges section on the LEASE website. The first step is to formally request a breakdown of annual expenditure, then work through that to find out where the glaring errors are - if you can compare to other local properties so much the better.

Next step is to formally request copies of any invoices or service contracts for more detail on exactly what you are paying for - I found this stage VERY enlightening. If you are then confident you are being overcharged you can informally challenge them (in writing, rather than at an LVT) and offer to use the LEASE mediation service. The more of this that can be done as a group the better, it doesn't have to be everyone: you may end up with an offer of a meeting with the Housing Association.

None of this costs money just time, I am three years down the line with our completely incompetent (now ex) management company and their fraudulent-invoice-producing contractors, and have saved myself £4K. I haven't yet had to go to an LVT I have simply amassed three years worth of evidence of their failure to perform their contractual and legal duties.

red40

This wouldn't surprise me that your HA is doing this following the inceident at Lakanal House in Camberwell. A letter was sent to all councils, HA advising them that in the interests of H&S a risk assessment should be carried out and areas of concern be addressed.

Possible a fire risk assessment may have been carried out and again highlighted a recommendation that communal areas require an additional early warning system. The HA in my own opinion is acting extremely responsibly by installing an additional system.

Dont forget that although the building may have been built with full building regs approval, building regs are only a minimum. I am sure the compartmentation and fire separation are adequate, but for the sake of £170 odd quid I would be more than happy to pay for peace of mind.

blckbrd

I'd imagine the LL has carried out a fire risk assessment as required by the Regulatory Reform (Fire Safety) Order 2005 and found an issue with detection. Given recent publicity about fires in blocks of flats it's not surprising.

Doozergirl's right sub £250 no need to consult. However, check your lease for the term 'improvements' in relation to service charges. The new system is neither repairs nor maintenance so if the wording in your lease is limited to those two terms you may have a challenge at LVT if you want to take it that far. You can join with other leaseholders to bring the action and share initial costs. If you win you can request your costs are paid by the LL

In respect of invoices - you may have to wait until the end of the billing year, after the actual invoice has been sent, to start the process to get access to such and to take copies in line with section 22 LL&T 1985 (as amended) rather than having them sent to you.

moromir

mcchalk wrote: »

I'm annoyed because as far as i can see and all the other people that live there this doesnt need doing. its only 3 levels.

With all due respect, unless you or any of your neighbours hold relevent qualifcations to make that statement, you do not know that the work does not need carrying out. It is simply your opinion which is clearly biased on cost, not knowledge of fire safety. If you don't understand why the risk assessor has recommended the system, why not ask the management company for a copy and look at the reasoning for the system.

mcchalk wrote: »

You could jump that and not so much as hurt a finger! Also with it only being 5 years old i'm annoyed that this was not seen as a problem before. are you telling that fire has chaged in 5 years and before there was no need but now they are out of control? Its the same as before only safety officers trying to wrap everything up!

The science of fire is not a static field. New scientific papers are filed with journals every week highlighting new information and studies on how fire interacts with modern materials and there is still a lot to learn. So to answer your query, yes, in five years there may very well be a wealth of information available to the fire risk assessment contractor that was not available when the building was constructed. Similarly this information may have changed the legislation they are bound by in this time (don't hold me to it but I think there were a lot of new regulations in 2005).

I'm not going to go all Internet Doctor on you but as for falling out of a three story building and 'not so much hurt[ing] a finger', I carried out a quick and dirty google search on 'jumping from a three story building', out of the top three results, one man died, one survived by landing in a canal and the third was critically injured.


I cannot advise you strongly enough that if the managing agents have offered you an upgraded fire safety system - TAKE IT. I value my life at more than £172.81.

mcchalk

Fire_Fox wrote: »

Bingley in Yorkshire? If so I can PM you some fairly local service charge prices. You don't initially need to go to an LVT, read the service charges section on the LEASE website. The first step is to formally request a breakdown of annual expenditure, then work through that to find out where the glaring errors are - if you can compare to other local properties so much the better.

Next step is to formally request copies of any invoices or service contracts for more detail on exactly what you are paying for - I found this stage VERY enlightening. If you are then confident you are being overcharged you can informally challenge them (in writing, rather than at an LVT) and offer to use the LEASE mediation service. The more of this that can be done as a group the better, it doesn't have to be everyone: you may end up with an offer of a meeting with the Housing Association.

None of this costs money just time, I am three years down the line with our completely incompetent (now ex) management company and their fraudulent-invoice-producing contractors, and have saved myself £4K. I haven't yet had to go to an LVT I have simply amassed three years worth of evidence of their failure to perform their contractual and legal duties.

Thanks Fire Fox. It is Bingley west Yorkshire so anything you could send would be great. We have a meeting with them on the 20 something of Jan so any advice regarding service costs and what to do before then would be great.

As for the cost for the new break glass alarm. I do value my life more than £170 but what I’m saying is that an alarm system is already in place and we all think its going overboard. Anyway that for the people who live and use the building to decide I guess. I think it more of a point that we give them 17k+ a year and feel that this should come out of that pot even though it not in the lease that it should.