John Lennon On the Myth of Over-population

cepheus

You are either seriously deluded or selfishly spreading propaganda against genuine people. Even if the entirety of CRU were 'at it' it would be impossible for them to be fraudulent, their papers are peer reviewed and published, and all the data agrees with 3 to 4 other independent organisations, including NASA and the Japanese. For these to be fraudulent it would have to be a mass world scientific conspiracy, like the 'Moon Landing'. The only thing these 10 years of Emails reveals is how little corruption is going on.

Imagine if we had 10 years of Emails from one of the Denialist front groups paying Watts & climate-Audit for example we would be wading in it. The memos which have been intercepted from them reveal a cynical organisation with no scientific interest with the sole purpose of deluding the public.

How you dare accuse genuine Scientists when you have no knowledge of how they work!

PS That site is obviously a front for UKIP, a selfish, right wing, notorious, semi-racist and Climate Denialist group who have fallen off the right of the Conservative party who have enough notorious bloggers themselves on these issues.

exprog

The ignorance is hilarious. Again you show you have no evidence to justify your smear against that site. Clearly your accusation is a lie.

The only peer review going on is the gang of 40 telling each other to carry on the evil work. There has been no independent validation of their work. Nor could there have been any. That is why they hide (and have possibly destroyed some of) their raw data and their methodologies. That is not science. That is pseudo-science and a disgrace. Real scientists have their work available for independent reviewers to check their data and try reproducing their results. Obviously you have no understanding at all of the scientific process. Surely you must be from the pretend university of East Anglia.

The emails are only a small part of the released information. It is likely that the data was leaked, not hacked, quite possibly by someone sickened by the shenanigans. Many people are now going through that data in detail and that is what is putting an end to this scam. The full truth is going to come out now no matter how much whitewashing is tried. The emails do however show how this small group have systematically prevented actual scientists from evaluating their absurd theories.

This scam has cost the world trillions of dollars through things like the carbon trading scam. British workers have lost their jobs as a result. To quote that excellent site (you know, the one on which you can find nothing wrong thus causing you to rely on pathetic abuse) “We are paying an electricity "tax" of the order of £1.5 billion to an Indian steelmaker, for the privilege of have the production in the UK closed down and the work transferred to India.”

The sacked workers of Corus are amongst those directly suffering because of this outrageous hoax. These workers will now be having a miserable Christmas. Hopefully scientific charlatans will spend Christmas looking forward to the ruin coming their way.

Your concluding rant just shows what this is really all about. Not science but politics. A scheme by the hard Left to take money from the poor and give it to the rich. Entirely in keeping with the last 15 years of the worst government in British history comprehensively betraying its own supporters.

And by the way, that site is currently inviting Rajendra Pachauri, chairman of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, to sue if he thinks he has been libelled. They say “But he dare not. If he chose to sue, we could demand full disclosure of his financial affairs, through the courts.”

The unravelling of this rubbish is just beginning. It is not going to be stopped. Perhaps it's time for you to start dreaming up the next scam for defrauding the taxpayer.

Cardew

This 'discussion' is all acedemic anyway.

Regardless of the pros and cons of man made Global Warming, it is patently obvious that there is no intent to seriously cut back on carbon emissions by many of the big players - particularly China, India and to a lesser extent USA.

Of course the UK of Brown or Cameron will bask in self-righteousness by setting an example to the rest of the world; at a cost that will make bailing out the banking industry seem like small change!

cepheus

I agree with the first bit, however any monies proposed for climate change are miniscule relative to the defence industry spending much of which is used to secure oil supplies. What will be the cost of not doing anything? it will dwarf all this. It sounds like complaining about the cost of an insurance premium to me.

I also agree that the Denier industry are winning a public relations battle, and am convinced we need to resort to legal means to stop the more blatent lies being circulated.

The fossil fuel industry and Republican party are repeating the delaying tactic of the tobacco industry by every means of deceipt, if the Email hack can be traced back to any of their fringe groups it is essential they are prosecuted.

exprog

Cardew wrote: »

Of course the UK of Brown or Cameron will bask in self-righteousness by setting an example to the rest of the world; at a cost that will make bailing out the banking industry seem like small change!

Quite right. For example the eventual net cost to the American taxpayer of the bank bailout is estimated to amount to $1 - $2 trillion, the cost to Britain will possibly be around £1 trillion, the global income stream of the carbon trading scam is expected to expand to $2 trillion per year by 2020. India and, especially, China are busy laughing at the idiot/traitor politicians of Europe busily destroying their own economies.

On the other hand some people are making loads of dosh out of the scam. Seems Al Gore has made a billion dollars. Nice work if you can keep the hoax going.

Nor does the scam just relate to carbon. That website, which is so unimpeachable that not even the most demented warmist groupie can find any inaccuracy, also notes that third world countries are now being paid twice as much to destroy the refrigerant known as HCF-22 as it costs them to produce it. An obvious incentive to produce pollutants. The cost to be met by consumers in the West, natch.

exprog

cepheus wrote: »

I ...am convinced we need to resort to legal means to stop the more blatent lies being circulated.

More hilarity! Revealing your true agenda again. - Can't win on the truth, so try winning by coercion. So Stalinist. So typical of these lying alarmists.

PS Still no attempt to justify your lying smear I notice.

Cardew

cepheus wrote: »

if the Email hack can be traced back to any of their fringe groups it is essential they are prosecuted.

For someone who posts a lot of sensible comments, I find the above quote extraordinary!!

(That is assuming that you mean the hackers proscecuted and not those intent on hiding evidence that doesn't support their theories;))

Actually your analogy about the tobacco industry is relevant, in the sense that there are vested interests; albeit on both sides!

Nobody would argue with your contention that the concensus of scientific opinion supports the 'man made climate change' argument. However within that body of opinion, there are many different theories on the effect of carbon emissions.

The actions of the those scientists, who quite clearly have been intent on suppressing evidence that does not suit their aim, should be condemned, not the actions of those who exposed that deceipt.

If there was nothing to hide, why not allow all evidence and research - including email correspondence - to be openly published.

cepheus

Cardew wrote: »

If there was nothing to hide, why not allow all evidence and research - including email correspondence - to be openly published.

Would you allow all your Email correspondence to be published to bodies whose sole purpose was set up to distort evidence to suit some political motive against your position? I am sure that every Email from the climate groups around the world would be happily traded with Emails from the multitude of front groups set up by the Denier industry. I think all the research has been published or is available from other bodies such as NASA and NOAA.

Nobody would argue with your contention that the consensus of scientific opinion supports the 'man made climate change' argument. However within that body of opinion, there are many different theories on the effect of carbon emissions.

I'm not sure what you mean. Scientists are uncertain to the extent that carbon emissions will warm the planet. That is why many scenarios are considered. 97% of climate scientists support the AGW position and most of the other 3% accept some influence of greenhouse gases. To do otherwise would be absurd as believing in creationism. Why allow the media to portray a balanced argument? Why not allow holocaust Deniers equal air time?

That the scientists are seriously !!!!ed off with Denier views and are reluctant to allow poor quality reports to be published by those with a political motive I have no doubt. However, they seem to be of a balanced opinion, or else there would be official reports claiming that human life will soon become extinct due to AGW, or we will have to relocate around the poles, like James Lovelock once wrote! It is also true that the IPCC reports are extremely conservative, and may be politically influenced by being toned down, since references to positive feedback effects accelerating climate change were removed from the last report.

Cardew

cepheus wrote: »

Would you allow all your Email correspondence to be published to bodies whose sole purpose was set up to distort evidence to suit some political motive against your position? .

If I was conducting research, I would of course be happy for anything to be freely available, including emails; why should I hide anything?

If I was confident of my research, my 'position'(as you put it) should be robust enough the withstand to most intense scrutiny.

You don't seem to appreciate why people are so upset about the content of the leaked emails.

We have a body of scientists who have a huge responsibilty for feeding information to our political masters, who will rely on that information to make decisions to spend trillions of dollars of taxpayer's money.

It is patently obvious that these scientists were not prepared to present unbiased information, but hell-bent on suppressing any evidence that did not support their 'position'.

We went to war in Iraq, costing many lives and billions of dollars, on the false premise that Iraq had WMD that would be capable of being deployed in 45 mins.

There was plenty of evidence that the claims about Iraq's WMD were not true; however that evidence was suppressed because it didn't agree with the 'position' of those who wanted 'regime change'.

I have no idea who is correct in the debate, and certainly am not a Denier, neither have I your certainty!

Your position appears to be one of blind faith that the man-made GW scientists are correct and there should be no debate on that 'position'. That those discovering evidence is being suppressed and daring to publish those facts should be proscecuted.

Your definition of democracy is different to mine!!

cootambear

exprog wrote: »

The ignorance is hilarious. Again you show you have no evidence to justify your smear against that site. Clearly your accusation is a lie.

The only peer review going on is the gang of 40 telling each other to carry on the evil work. There has been no independent validation of their work. Nor could there have been any. That is why they hide (and have possibly destroyed some of) their raw data and their methodologies. That is not science. That is pseudo-science and a disgrace. Real scientists have their work available for independent reviewers to check their data and try reproducing their results. Obviously you have no understanding at all of the scientific process. Surely you must be from the pretend university of East Anglia.

The emails are only a small part of the released information. It is likely that the data was leaked, not hacked, quite possibly by someone sickened by the shenanigans. Many people are now going through that data in detail and that is what is putting an end to this scam. The full truth is going to come out now no matter how much whitewashing is tried. The emails do however show how this small group have systematically prevented actual scientists from evaluating their absurd theories.

This scam has cost the world trillions of dollars through things like the carbon trading scam. British workers have lost their jobs as a result. To quote that excellent site (you know, the one on which you can find nothing wrong thus causing you to rely on pathetic abuse) “We are paying an electricity "tax" of the order of £1.5 billion to an Indian steelmaker, for the privilege of have the production in the UK closed down and the work transferred to India.”

The sacked workers of Corus are amongst those directly suffering because of this outrageous hoax. These workers will now be having a miserable Christmas. Hopefully scientific charlatans will spend Christmas looking forward to the ruin coming their way.

Your concluding rant just shows what this is really all about. Not science but politics. A scheme by the hard Left to take money from the poor and give it to the rich. Entirely in keeping with the last 15 years of the worst government in British history comprehensively betraying its own supporters.

And by the way, that site is currently inviting Rajendra Pachauri, chairman of the UN's Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change, to sue if he thinks he has been libelled. They say “But he dare not. If he chose to sue, we could demand full disclosure of his financial affairs, through the courts.”

The unravelling of this rubbish is just beginning. It is not going to be stopped. Perhaps it's time for you to start dreaming up the next scam for defrauding the taxpayer.

Surely you mean the hard right. Climate alarmism is the new orthodoxy of the ruling class, and to challenge it you are commiting a religious sin as a `Denier`.