CAN'T HAVE a meter? Get ripped off

stephenhj

Yet again, Ofwat approves the exploitation of people charged on rateable value, as against those with meters. Too bad on those households--in flats usually--that can't have meters.

Sure, they're probably entitled to an "assessed charge" which could slash their bills--if they know it even exists and how to get it.

Answer: apply for a meter, even though you know it's impossible; and once the company's surveyors officially agreed that that is so, then it'll offer you a switch to "assessed charge".

But do the companies want you to know this way out? Not Thames Water. It won't tell you the charge even exists until you've applied and it's done its survey. So you may go on for years being ripped off blind.

And does Ofwat condemn this secrecy? Far from it: Ofwat not just couldn't care less but actively supports Thames's policy. And this is a body that claims to protect consumers!

Short-term remedy: Tell everyone you know who might gain, that the charge exists, and they can use it, if (however absurd it may sound) they ask for a meter. If you know victims of the rip-off, tell your local paper. Longer-term: Kick Thames and Ofwat till they change their ways--or their top management. Or, better still, both.

tori.k

there website was pretty clear and states.

Once we've received your request, we'll arrange to visit yor property to see if a meter can be fitted.
Please note, in some cases we are unable to fit a meter - for example, if the pipework is not suitable. If this is the case, we may be able to consider an alternative rate of charge.

That took me 2 clicks of a mouse to find

Cardew

tori.k wrote: »

there website was pretty clear and states.

Once we've received your request, we'll arrange to visit yor property to see if a meter can be fitted.
Please note, in some cases we are unable to fit a meter - for example, if the pipework is not suitable. If this is the case, we may be able to consider an alternative rate of charge.

That took me 2 clicks of a mouse to find

This has been covered in depth in this thread(including contributions by Stephenhj) http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1991691

Their(valid) point is that in London(particularly) some residents of flats are aware that meters cannot be fitted to their block - as others had tried in the past - and therefore saw no point in applying for a meter.

They were unaware that the system of assessed charges existed as there has been no publicity on this issue.

stephenhj

To tori.k:

Maybe you have an unusually intelligent mouse. And what were you looking for? My guess is "how to get a meter". Which is, of course, just what most sane people who know they can't have a meter won't be looking for. As Thames must very well be aware. Try being one of these people, and then search, if you don't know the keyword--"assessed household charge"--involved.

Anyway, why should one have to go to the Internet to find out? How many elderly widows/widowers who are the likeliest victims of Thames careful lack of publicity--living on their own, a good many in high-rated flats--how many of these can even use the Net?

Honest Southern Water, with this year's bills at least, sends its customers an "All you need to know" sheet. It tells you straightforwardly that if Southern can't fit a meter "you will be entitled to an assessed charge. This...nearly always results in a reduced bill".

Does Thames Water's equivalent--"Important customer information 2009/10"-- carry anything like this? No. Does it even mention how to get a meter? Let alone what you can do, and what then happens, if a meter is impossible? No. Still less, God forbid, mention "assessed charge" and tell you it would probably save you money.

February 10. I can now add Thames Water's grotesque excuse for its policy of non-information. In its latest email to me, after several paragraphs describing--quite irrelevantly--the way it tells people on the back of its bills that they can apply for a meter, it adds:
"We do not specifically mention the Assessed Household Charge on the back of our bills as this is
not a separate tariff that customers can apply for."

Not a separate tariff, indeed?!! So the assessed charge is the same as charging by rateable-value or by metered quantity, is it? And in fact, once Thames has been graciously pleased to affirm that you can't be metered, you can apply for it.

This sort of weaselling is what you'd expect, I suppose, from a giant foreign-owned monopoly happy to rip off its customers, and entirely unashamed when it is found out. It still stinks.

And Ofwat approves of this secrecy! Perhaps it should write a rude note to Southern Water telling that firm too to keep its customers in the dark?

stephenhj

An update to this thread. It's plain why Thames Water is so secretive about the very existence of the Assessed Household Charge: they make more money. But it's not so clear--except to cynics--why Ofwat supports this policy of anti-consumer secrecy.

I wonder how long Ofwat will be able to main its own anti-consumer attitude now that Thames have gone one step further in secrecy.

The Thames pamphlet of "information" that used to come with each year's water bill did in the past (though I'm not sure about 2010) at least mention the Assessed Household Charge, albeit on a page conveniently headed "Thinking about a meter?" that few non-meterable households would ever think of reading. The 2011 version of this pamphlet does not even mention the AHC. To learn about it you will have to delve into the Thames website, for a charge you've probably never heard of and in a section (it's labelled 'requestameter') whose title, just as with the pamphlet, will probably ensure that few non-meterable households will ever look at it.

How can Ofwat tolerate that? Still, I don't doubt it will be able to think up arguments. In another thread I've publicised some of its manifest claptrap, that reached me by email from the horse's mouth, Ofwat itself. A wretched broken-down nag it may be, toothless (at least to bite water companies) and fit only for the knacker's yard, but it's probably still quite able to dream up nonsense--which, as before, by happy coincidence, will suit its friends in the water monopolies.

Gothicfairy

stephenhj wrote: »

An update to this thread. It's plain why Thames Water is so secretive about the very existence of the Assessed Household Charge: they make more money. But it's not so clear--except to cynics--why Ofwat supports this policy of anti-consumer secrecy.

This is just not true though, meter or no meter: assessed or no assessed the amount of profit is already agreed and set down. They don't make more by putting people on meters, RV's or assessed.

I can see the point from both sides, if everyone just applied for assessed no one would have a meter and it would just be another rate of charge like RV but equally if you know you can't have a meter you wouldn't apply for one.

BackOnTrack

stephenhj wrote: »

And does Ofwat condemn this secrecy? Far from it: Ofwat not just couldn't care less but actively supports Thames's policy. And this is a body that claims to protect consumers!

Ofwat's remit has never been to protect consumers and it is the economic regulator of the water industry. It is the Consumer Council for Water that represents the consumer.

Really, try getting your facts traight before launching into a rant.

Cardew

stephenhj wrote: »

An update to this thread. It's plain why Thames Water is so secretive about the very existence of the Assessed Household Charge: they make more money. But it's not so clear--except to cynics--why Ofwat supports this policy of anti-consumer secrecy.

.

This has been explained to you several times - Thames don't make more money!! This from a previous thread:

Your post implies that any reduction in income from more properties having assessed charges will hit Thames Water's profits; and that is why they refrain from giving the scheme publicity.

That is simply incorrect!

The Regulator -ofwat - stipulates how much revenue any of the water companies can raise each year. In essence their(ofwat) approved expenses and profit margin determine their water charges.

So if, say, Thames Water were to 'lose' £1million revenue by more properties having assessed charges, the shortfall will be made up by an increase in charges for their metered/unmetered charges.

In this respect, all the water companies are in a win/win situation. They get their agreed revenue, and agreed profit margin, regardless of how the charges are collected.

To take a silly example, if all properties where a meter could not be fitted were given their water for free, it would not affect the revenue/profit of the water companies.

This is the reason why it does not concern Water Companies if loads of their customers get a meter and pay less than for RV based charges. Their revenue stays the same - Peter pays Paul!

That is not to say you don't have a valid point(I haven't checked) about the lack of publicity, but it is not a money making scheme.

We realise you are upset with Thames from your previous dealings, and there is plenty to criticise about all the water companies. However as stated in the quote above, it is largely because they are in a win/win situation and their revenue is assured.

Oblivion

We are with Thames Water. I live in a ground floor flat with another flat above me and we are served by a common water mains pipe ... if I turn my stopcock off, I turn his flat off too. I am assuming therefore that we would not be able to have a meter fitted.

My water bill this year is £305 which for a small flat with only 2 people occupying I consider to be excessive.

So how is this assessed charge calculated? If I do go through the rigmorole of applying for a meter and they say I can't have one but they'll assess me, how do they go about that assessment and could I run a risk of actually being worse off?

Cardew

Oblivion wrote: »

We are with Thames Water. I live in a ground floor flat with another flat above me and we are served by a common water mains pipe ... if I turn my stopcock off, I turn his flat off too. I am assuming therefore that we would not be able to have a meter fitted.

My water bill this year is £305 which for a small flat with only 2 people occupying I consider to be excessive.

So how is this assessed charge calculated? If I do go through the rigmorole of applying for a meter and they say I can't have one but they'll assess me, how do they go about that assessment and could I run a risk of actually being worse off?

Yes you apply for a meter - it is hardly a rigmorole - and you will be offered an assessed charge, which you don't have to accept.

On the other hand you could go to the Thames Water website and it will show you that for 2011/12 you will pay £237(for both water and sewerage) for a 1 bed property and £252 for a 2 bed property.

Get rid of the other occupant and you will pay just £187 as a single occupant;)

http://www.thameswater.co.uk/cps/rde/xbcr/corp/201112-unmetered-charges-leaflet.pdf

Oblivion

Cardew wrote: »

Yes you apply for a meter - it is hardly a rigmorole - and you will be offered an assessed charge, which you don't have to accept.

On the other hand you could go to the Thames Water website and it will show you that for 2011/12 you will pay £237(for both water and sewerage) for a 1 bed property and £252 for a 2 bed property.

Get rid of the other occupant and you will pay just £187 as a single occupant;)

http://www.thameswater.co.uk/cps/rde/xbcr/corp/201112-unmetered-charges-leaflet.pdf

Thanks for that info Cardew, the fact that I don't have to accept the assessment is the clincher. I'll apply for a meter and see what happens.

Not sure my wife would appreciate being turfed out on the streets after nearly 37 years married though :rotfl: