Rent Admin Fee

landscaperico

Jowo wrote: »

Yes, if the tenant wants to proceed with the tenancy, then they must pay the admin fees associated with preparing it. As you've discovered, those unwilling to pay the charge cannot expect accommodation from agencies. They act as gate keepers - no payee, no keyee.

You seemed to have been a timewaster with your original preferred flat, viewing it and then withdrawing your interest once you found out that, in common with 99% of agencies (shock, horror), that particular agency charges its tenants a fee to progress past viewings.

It's just as well the agents charge as it filters out those who are serious and committed about moving and have funds in place to do it. Agencies also tend to want proof from property buyers that they have a mortgage in principle to deter timewasters who are browsing properties when they aren't in the position to get a mortgage or want to gawp at properties above their budget. That way, it saves the company time and expenses associated with timewasters, expense they'd rather remove from taking place rather than transferring onto the landlord.

Firstly yes if I had been given a detailed list as you just gave an example of I would have been much happier, i could have questioned each cost and assuming its a valid cost I would have accepted it.

Secondly shock horror I knew about the admin fees on the day I viewed the property, however I also know how stupidly high the fees were and expected I could make a deal with the agent I offered an extra months rent for a lower fee, this property was below what I currently pay every month now so if your implying I was gawping at a property I couldn't afford then thats untrue. What I also could not understand is how I paid £70 in admin fees for the property I'm in at the moment that has a rent of £725 a month and how the property I was looking at which was on at £575 per month could have an admin fee of £185, the reason I didnt move into the property was because of the principle and hense what led me to write this forum.

What you also said is thank god LA charge these fees so they stop timewasters, no in my case they stopped me all together. Also you think that the tenant that isnt a timewaster should then pay for all the people who dont go for the property.

And by your logic do you think it would be wise to put on an advert

House to rent, no timewasters, £30 addmission fee no viewers who wont definately rent this property. Hey that way the tenant who ends up renting the property doesnt have to pay an admin fee, although they probably would as would the landlord.

And the morgage thing is fine they have to prove that they can pay for it, no problem, if they want to see my bank statement or my pay slip I wouldnt mind, they ask what you earn anyway and that way I can prove I can pay for it. A credit check is the way to prove I can pay for it and they cost max £10 per person, fine I'll pay that. not £185

Jowo_2

landscaperico wrote: »

Firstly yes if I had been given a detailed list as you just gave an example of I would have been much happier, i could have questioned each cost and assuming its a valid cost I would have accepted it.

You could have questioned each cost in detail and challenged its validity and the response from the agent would probably be the same - no pay, no key, in the same way that if I said to my plumber on Monday 'I'm not sure I want to pay you £250 an hour to fit my boiler' as it seems a tad extortionate, he'd have driven off that second and fitted it in someone else's house for the same money. Plumbing & Letting agent = sellers market.

So far you've contacted 2 letting agents and there's been a 10% difference in the price for the admin fees quoted. When I got multiple quotes from plumbers, they didn't vary that much either.

landscaperico wrote: »

And by your logic do you think it would be wise to put on an advert

House to rent, no timewasters, £30 addmission fee no viewers who wont definately rent this property.

As previously explained, while the law is weakly worded, it is an offence for letting agents to charge upfront fees to tenants to obtain listings and undertake viewings. But they don't need to do this anyway as its perfectly legit for them to charge whatever they wish as an admin fee to progress the tenancy at the tenant's request in the same way the tenant is wholly free not to use their services if they don't wish to.

adg1

landscaperico wrote: »

yes if I had been given a detailed list as you just gave an example of I would have been much happier, i could have questioned each cost and assuming its a valid cost I would have accepted it.

With 1 statement you have gone against everything - you've spent the entire thread arguing that tenants should pay no fees throughout the whole process. Now you'd be happy if they can define each cost associated?

landscaperico wrote: »

I knew about the admin fees on the day I viewed the property ... I could make a deal with the agent I offered an extra months rent for a lower fee

The rent goes to the landlord, not to cover the administration involved in the Ts side of an application.

landscaperico wrote: »

I also could not understand is how I paid £70 in admin fees for the property I'm in at the moment that has a rent of £725 a month and how the property I was looking at which was on at £575 per month could have an admin fee of £185

Each agent will charge differently depending on the level of work they carry out for a T - if agent 1 does checks at £35 then his admin fee will be more than agent 2 who does the £5 DIY check online at dodgyref.com.

landscaperico wrote: »

...LA charge these fees so they stop timewasters, no in my case they stopped me all together. Also you think that the tenant that isnt a timewaster should then pay for all the people who dont go for the property.

No. But if YOU were a Landlord of a property and the agent you instructed had a few viewings, and brought you a few offers, all of which went through to the referencing stage - Great so far. Then 3 of the 4 people fail the checks orpull out of the deal. Would YOU (as the landlord) then cover the cost of the 3 failed applications, from your own pocket? Thats what you are suggesting and I don't know of any landlords who would swallow the costs. An agent won't as they are a business. Who will pay? Will the referencing agencies do it free? I don't think so.

landscaperico wrote: »

A credit check is the way to prove I can pay for it and they cost max £10 per person, fine I'll pay that. not £185

£10 for a check is very cheap and wouldn't provide me with nearly enough information on a potential tenant for me to grant them a tenancy in my house. Sorry.

landscaperico

Actually I've quoted 2 i've found alot of different admin fees including one that was £165 per person, so two of us £330 and there is not a 10% in difference between £70 and £185, and why couldnt you have questioned it, why shouldnt you, its your right, if you word your question to them in a certain way you can ask them for a discount, like if you take £50 off per hour I'll refer you (bad example but you get the point). People expect you to ask, if you dont ask you dont receive!!

And again its never been about whats legal or not but whats right. I dont think its right and I think it should be questioned and investigated. Yes they can charge what they want but its not right, simple as. And like you said I chose to walk away and I was fully prepared to deal with the agent, he didnt budge on his fee so I didnt move. Therefore making the market (a buyers market) even more stale than it was.

Jowo_2

To clarify, the 10% change I was referring to is between the first and second admin fees of your two most recent letting agents. We can all look nostalgically back to cheaper prices under historically different market conditions. Petrol prices bob up and down depending on supply/demand.

The agent doesn't need to budge on his fees because finding tenants for properties in some areas is like shooting fish in a barrel. They don't need to do deals if they are going to find someone quite quickly for that property. There's no incentive for them to drop an easy £160-185 if they've got a list of prospective tenants as long as your arm.

Your action in withdrawing from those 2 agencies would be effective if it was a coordinated mass movement but tenants tend to be quite individualistic, seeking out what is specifically best for just themselves.

The agent must either be excessively confident of finding a replacement for you (in which case, it will backfire if the landlord tires of the void period and puts the property on another agencies books thinking they will market it better) or accurately confident, so if the latter is the case and it is you who is misreading the market, you've cut your nose off to spite your face.

Your offer to pay an extra months rent upfront as an 'incentive' to drop the admin fee is laughable. By law a tenant is obligated to pay rent. It gives the agent zero, absolutely nothing, and is useless as a bargaining tool because they are quite happy to get the rent when it is due - giving it to him a tad sooner has absolutely no positive impact on his overall income.

If you are so incensed by the agents actions, download the ownership details from the land registry website for £4. If its a buy to let property, then it may give you the landlord's address elsewhere. You can then write to him and let him know that after negotiating the rent down, the agent then refused to drop their admin charge so you withdrew. The landlord is either going to be concerned by his agents greed or relieved that the agent managed to swiftly install a new tenant there, perhaps one that is happy to pay the advertised rent.

landscaperico

adg1 wrote: »

With 1 statement you have gone against everything - you've spent the entire thread arguing that tenants should pay no fees throughout the whole process. Now you'd be happy if they can define each cost associated?



The rent goes to the landlord, not to cover the administration involved in the Ts side of an application.



Each agent will charge differently depending on the level of work they carry out for a T - if agent 1 does checks at £35 then his admin fee will be more than agent 2 who does the £5 DIY check online at dodgyref.com.



No. But if YOU were a Landlord of a property and the agent you instructed had a few viewings, and brought you a few offers, all of which went through to the referencing stage - Great so far. Then 3 of the 4 people fail the checks orpull out of the deal. Would YOU (as the landlord) then cover the cost of the 3 failed applications, from your own pocket? Thats what you are suggesting and I don't know of any landlords who would swallow the costs. An agent won't as they are a business. Who will pay? Will the referencing agencies do it free? I don't think so.



£10 for a check is very cheap and wouldn't provide me with nearly enough information on a potential tenant for me to grant them a tenancy in my house. Sorry.

Ok I'll address your points 1 by 1-

1. I said I dont mind paying whats right, I dont think it is right to charge the tenant a fee but if I have to to move into a property then I will, and a credit cheque is something that is personal only to me, so they stand to loose out if my credit check doesnt clear.

2. Again refer to the point above, I'll pay whats fair, I dont think its fair to charge anything, however if I deam it fair I'll pay it, the fact that they cant produce a list like the list Jowo has produced tells me there is something fishy going on. Had they given me a list I would have questioned it and wanted a full explanation. Its my money I want to know what its going on. I have a right to.

3. Yes the rent goes to the landlord, and the landlord pays the LA so I expect the money I pay to him to cover the fees to the LA. If that means my rent will go up so be it, I would expect my landlord will get a better deal than I do.

4. Yes every property is different, but explain this I live in an apartment classed as a type 3 apartment, I saw another type 3 apartment unfurnished like this one, one floor up from me for a bit less rent with £330 admin fee where I paid £70. How does that work!

5. No if I was a landlord I would expect the LA who I'm paying to make sure they cover the costs - yes you might say that would bring the price I pay to the LA up, but I doubt it happens so often and with every property that the applicant fails his credit check that it wouldnt affect the price the landlord pays the LA by very much.

6. So how much does a check cost that you need information for, and do you tell your tenants that you do a full credit check on them therefore lowering there overall credit score, rather than the standard £10 check that is a partial credit check that most LA's use.

I think thats all your points answerd possibly in a jumbled order.

Jowo_2

axomoxia wrote: »

Claiming that would-be landlords withdraw from the market if they had to pay all the fees is just utter guff. There a many other business with this rule that function perfectly well, e.g. house sales. Also this a recent invention, the rental market worked perfectly well before these charges where introduced, and and I fail to see the rental market stopping working if the charges reverted back to the customer.

Changes in the property market can have huge repercussions. Why on earth would landlords continue to invest in property if the expenses they incur rise and make the rental yield too low? If admin fees were declared illegal for agents, then they'd transfer the cost onto the landlord who would then transfer the cost back onto the tenant. Sounds logical to me.

When HMO legislation was brought in that created additional expense for landlords, properties of that size and type became less popular and landlords have sold their portfolios because of the impact on rental yields and extra fees incurred.

When the government screwed up private pensions and controls on buy to let mortgages were relaxed, lots of individuals piled in to purchase properties for their nest eggs.

When tenants had greater security of tenure, Rachmanism flourished.

Market conditions will always influence the cost and quality of the service offered. Tenants generally get short thrift because agents are in control of what the tenants want. In boom times, sellers are coveted and buyers get short thrift. In the recession, buyers get the upper hand.

When the UK experiences its next huge population spurt in the next few decades, who knows whether this will result in even harder times for tenants - either more tenants competing for ever less housing stock or perhaps if house prices are more affordable, more home owners means less tenants seeking accommodation.

landscaperico

Jowo wrote: »

To clarify, the 10% change I was referring to is between the first and second admin fees of your two most recent letting agents. We can all look nostalgically back to cheaper prices under historically different market conditions. Petrol prices bob up and down depending on supply/demand.

The agent doesn't need to budge on his fees because finding tenants for properties in some areas is like shooting fish in a barrel. They don't need to do deals if they are going to find someone quite quickly for that property. There's no incentive for them to drop an easy £160-185 if they've got a list of prospective tenants as long as your arm.

Your action in withdrawing from those 2 agencies would be effective if it was a coordinated mass movement but tenants tend to be quite individualistic, seeking out what is specifically best for just themselves.

The agent must either be excessively confident of finding a replacement for you (in which case, it will backfire if the landlord tires of the void period and puts the property on another agencies books thinking they will market it better) or accurately confident, so if the latter is the case and it is you who is misreading the market, you've cut your nose off to spite your face.

Your offer to pay an extra months rent upfront as an 'incentive' to drop the admin fee is laughable. By law a tenant is obligated to pay rent. It gives the agent zero, absolutely nothing, and is useless as a bargaining tool because they are quite happy to get the rent when it is due - giving it to him a tad sooner has absolutely no positive impact on his overall income.

If you are so incensed by the agents actions, download the ownership details from the land registry website for £4. If its a buy to let property, then it may give you the landlord's address elsewhere. You can then write to him and let him know that after negotiating the rent down, the agent then refused to drop their admin charge so you withdrew. The landlord is either going to be concerned by his agents greed or relieved that the agent managed to swiftly install a new tenant there, perhaps one that is happy to pay the advertised rent.

The rent was never an issue I have no problem paying it, my laughable approach was exactly whats wrong with the admin fee, it wouldnt have been laughable to the LL but like you say it will have been to the LA, thankyou for pointing that out. I will download it from the land registry thankyou for that also. And whats wrong with negotiating with rent, the fact that he dropped £75 pretty much says he desperate, as are lots of other landlords in the area, so the admin fee just messed everthing up for everyone.

Again read it properly! £165 x 2 = £330 the other property was £185 for both of us. Not 10% And nostalgically I dont think, when £70 was only 6 months ago when the market was in a worst state than it is now.

Whats your problem with negotiating. There is always room to and you should never be afraid of walk away from a deal. Thats what I did, I still live in a lovely flat, yes I didnt get the house I wanted but hey I'm £185 better off and much happier because I've stayed true to my own beliefs.

I bet you could have got money off that plumber!

Jowo_2

landscaperico wrote: »

1. I said I dont mind paying whats right, I dont think it is right to charge the tenant a fee but if I have to to move into a property then I will, and a credit cheque is something that is personal only to me, so they stand to loose out if my credit check doesnt clear.
.

Your logic is warped. You don't get to pay 'what's right' you get to pay whatever the market conditions compel the person to pay, not what's morally or ethically acceptable.

The agents don't lose out - the next tenant takes the property and if the tenant has paid a holding deposit or admin fee whose terms are that there is no refund if the credit check is failed, the agent still potentially bagged £100 through some quite simple tasks.

The landlord doesn't lose out - they've been saved from having a numpty move in who can't manage their finances and is more likely to get into rent arrears.

Meanwhile, the tenant is down by £x and doesn't get the property that they wanted to live in.

landscaperico wrote: »

2. ..I'll pay whats fair, I dont think its fair to charge anything, however if I deam it fair I'll pay it, the fact that they cant produce a list like the list Jowo has produced tells me there is something fishy going on. Had they given me a list I would have questioned it and wanted a full explanation. Its my money I want to know what its going on. I have a right to.

A majority of it is simply their income which you dislike because it doesn't offer value for money that you seek - the fact that you prefer for them to demonstrate time and expense so you can quibble the breakdown is pretty irrelevant as I doubt that many agents care to elaborate.

In a market that's strong for agents, it's very much 'pay it or don't get the key' as you've discovered. Your preferences can be disregarded when there are others queuing to pay this unpopular fee without a murmur.

You are on a hiding for nothing seeking an agent to demonstrate they offer value for money - they don't even bother to pitch their services around notions of value - they don't need to because they've got the key to the property and you don't.

My plumber didn't pitch his quote on value for money but take it or leave it - they are booked up for weeks and don't actually need my custom. It's not 'fair', its just what happens. If I quibbled, it, the plumber would just have laughed at me and answered another call from another customer seeking to give them custom. At least you can find a private landlord, I have no alternative but to use a plumber..

landscaperico wrote: »

4. Yes every property is different, but explain this I live in an apartment classed as a type 3 apartment, I saw another type 3 apartment unfurnished like this one, one floor up from me for a bit less rent with £330 admin fee where I paid £70. How does that work!.

A previous poster has argued that agents are now seeking to address their loss of income from slow property sales through income from tenants. This sounds logical to me as an explanation for an increase in admin fees levied on tenants. I expect charges by agents to landlords may have also increased.

When banks were rapped for charging steep overdraft fees, they then secured income by charging for bank services elsewhere, there was even talk that customers would pay ATM charges for each withdrawal. All sounds like standard capitalism to me.

mynameisdave

landscaperico wrote: »

Recently me and my flat mate decided we wanted to move house so we contacted Thornley Groves of Altrincham to move into a new house, they asked for one months rent of £575 + Deposit + and admin fee of £185, which I found ridiculous. (the admin fee was ridiculous)

We bartered the agent down from a £650 p/m rent to the £575, and when I refused to pay the £185

landscaperico wrote: »

But what your also saying is that the Tenant who ends up renting the property is then the person who will have to stump up the cash for all the timewasters. Well thats not right. You want it advertised you pay for it which you are doing, its the LA's that are charging both sides.

landscaperico wrote: »

Secondly shock horror I knew about the admin fees on the day I viewed the property, however I also know how stupidly high the fees were and expected I could make a deal with the agent I offered an extra months rent for a lower fee, this property was below what I currently pay every month now so if your implying I was gawping at a property I couldn't afford then thats untrue. What I also could not understand is how I paid £70 in admin fees for the property I'm in at the moment that has a rent of £725 a month and how the property I was looking at which was on at £575 per month could have an admin fee of £185, the reason I didnt move into the property was because of the principle and hense what led me to write this forum.

What you also said is thank god LA charge these fees so they stop timewasters, no in my case they stopped me all together. Also you think that the tenant that isnt a timewaster should then pay for all the people who dont go for the property.

So you knew about the fee upfront, had no intention of paying it and still went to view the property?

THIS is the type of unecessary expense LA's encounter.