debtors going without food.

lostinrates

ninky wrote: »

you might not be able to stop people buying it but you could legislate against the parcelling up of land in this way. there are plenty of other rules about land use. once all these little postage stamps of land are sold off it will make it very difficult (without some sort of compulsory purchase) to ever make it more useful in terms of food production or wildlife use. combine that with an absence of right to roam and it's all a bit depressing. i don't even have kids and i wonder what we are leaving for the next generation. where do the children, let alone the adults, play? the wii fit generation (they are even getting them in schools now).

But suppose it were parceled in to...community farming, or allotments? Farms were not the size they are now, perhaps we hould go back to strip farming?

I'm not being antagonisitc, these are all valid ideas in land use...

if small lots were to be banned you might restrict some of the usesyou put forward as desirable, and restrict land availabilty to people. (although through planning this is effective now). How much land per head is there? (I used to know this sort of thing:o still, population has changed)

re the luxury of gardens, people do, individually have choice of where to live. some less than others...

lemonjelly

Thanks for all the debate. Interesting views!;)

I think what the report is looking to highlight, is the circumstances people are in when they START on the road to support to manage their debts. When you're on a DMP or similar, like the folks have on this site, the whole picture has been looked at, all expenditure has been reviewed, excessive spending can be highlighted & tailored, essential spending can be justified, and all creditors get a fair & pro-rata offer, with priority going to rent/mortgage/council tax etc etc.

My reading is the article is highlighting the situation people in debt are in prior to this. IME, people with debts who have got to the stage this report relates to have spent time trying to resolve the issues themselves, without seeking help. This'll be for a variety of reasons, pride, denial, lack of awareness, feeling ashamed etc etc. Trouble is, they are not necessarily aware of how to do this. So they "rob peter to pay paul" generally.

The biggest problem I see is that they don't look at the whole picture. There are normally a number of creditors, and they will be regularly ringing/writing to the debtor shouting about how they want their money back, & making all sorts of threats about court, prison etc if they don't get it. Not all of the threats are true, and their letters are designed to intimidate. Most debtors won't know about section 40 of the administration of justice act 1970, which highlights what constitutes harrassment & can be very useful!

So with all sorts of creditors shouting individually at them, the debtor deals with 1 creditor at a time, in isolation. This doesn't take into account the bigger picture, & how agreeing to pay (eg) barclaycard £10 a week (which they will tell you is the ABSOLUTE minimum they can accept) then the next day agreeing to pay Lloyds TSB £15 a week. At the time the debtor gets the call, their priority is to stop the threats of court action, shredding of their credit rating etc etc, & to pacify the person on the phone, so they agree to unrealistic & unsustainable repayment plans.

A few weeks later, they end up defaulting on them. No surprise as they were unsustainable in the first place. However the creditors then use this to hit the debtor over the head. "You agreed X & didn't keep to it, so you have to pay XX now" (kind of a ridiculous logic - they couldn't afford the first payment, so now you're doubling it?).

So, in the struggle to manage, alone, unaware of boards like DFW, or charities like CCCS, CAB, National Debtline, Payplan or the many other invaluable local services, people (usually the poorest) struggle on. Perhaps turning to provident, or even worse, loan sharks in a vain attempt to resolve it. Whilst all this is going on, creditors add on charge after charge after charge. So the amount of debt goes up & up.

You see the spiral here? You see how this could affect mental well-being, health, relationships, self-perception, your own ability to cope with life?

What then happens if your washing machine goes? How do you wash the kids clothes for school?

So yes, I can see how people do go without food for one reason or another.

I happily acknowledge that there will be people out there who lack budgeting skills and the like. I actually think this is part of the root problem. Other skills would help - the ability to cook proper fresh & frozen food, as opposed to processed stuff.

Once people get onto a DMP, then the need to go without (hopefully) shouldn't arise - allowing for emergencies.

But I'll go back to where I started, this report for me is highlighting where people are at AT THE STAGE WHERE THEY SAY "I can't cope, I need help". Be that on the DFW board, or an organisation. Generally, that is where you get to when it becomes apparent you can't do it alone. (& remember, you may be alone, after all, you may have fled a violent relationship, & be housed where you have no family, & are too scared to contact your family back home in case 'they' find out, & can then find where you live, & you don't know anyone round here...)

I have seen people in worse situations.

Yes, I've also seen the blaggers. But it is those who really need it that I look forward to helping. And I think it is those who this report is trying to put attention onto. People like that are out there.

ninky_2

lostinrates wrote: »

But suppose it were parceled in to...community farming, or allotments? Farms were not the size they are now, perhaps we hould go back to strip farming?

I'm not being antagonisitc, these are all valid ideas in land use...

if small lots were to be banned you might restrict some of the usesyou put forward as desirable, and restrict land availabilty to people. (although through planning this is effective now). How much land per head is there? (I used to know this sort of thing:o still, population has changed)

re the luxury of gardens, people do, individually have choice of where to live. some less than others...

absolutely. this would be fantastic, and i think encouraging small croft style farms would be good but probably involve lifting some of the restrictions on allowing people to live on the land too which would have to be thought through carefully. it's something i'd like to find out more about. from what i understand you can't just buy agricultural land and grow food for your own use on it - it has to be for sale (at least some of it) and then of course tax issues come into play and it all gets bureaucratic and complicated.

dopester

lostinrates wrote: »

But suppose it were parceled in to...community farming, or allotments? Farms were not the size they are now, perhaps we hould go back to strip farming?

I'm not being antagonisitc, these are all valid ideas in land use...

if small lots were to be banned you might restrict some of the usesyou put forward as desirable, and restrict land availabilty to people. (although through planning this is effective now). How much land per head is there? (I used to know this sort of thing:o still, population has changed)

re the luxury of gardens, people do, individually have choice of where to live. some less than others...

The UK's largest private landowner, The National Trust, announced they'd be making land available for allotments at the start of the year. If someone is already on a waiting list, perhaps approach the NT and get on theirs early?

As a private landowner, the National Trust can do what it likes except for certain legal and physical limitations.

However this still leaves plenty of land available. Farmland is the most likely option though this will have to be in agreement with tenant farmers where they are still running the farms. The rural surveying team at the Trust are currently considering the options.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/4325171/National-Trust-to-give-land-for-allotments.html

treliac

brightonman123 wrote: »

I can only afford 4 cans of stella a day now.. though I do recycle! hic.

Do you mean you drink it twice? :eek:

ninky_2

dopester wrote: »

The UK's largest private landowner, The National Trust, announced they'd be making land available for allotments at the start of the year. If someone is already on a waiting list, perhaps approach the NT and get on theirs early?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/earthnews/4325171/National-Trust-to-give-land-for-allotments.html

good idea but i suppose it depends if the supply of national trust land will be anywhere near where the demand is. i'm not sure there is any national trust land near me (but i could be wrong). it's cities that really need the allotments but unfortunately any large areas seem to get given over to superstores.

interestingly that article says...

Geoff Stokes, national secretary of the National Society of Allotment and Leisure Gardeners, said the amount of land given over to allotments has halved in the last 30 years to just 25,000 acres because food was so cheap at the supermarkets. He said there are currently 100,000 people on waiting lists for allotments.

Fire_Fox

wageslave wrote: »

I will have a look at the thread if I can find it.

I could seriously use some help when it comes to eating cheaply. I spend about hundred quid a week on groceries which I realise is a horrendous amount.

But I have to be honest I wouldn't feed the brat value chickens.

The first Weezl74 thread, including making sure the diet was nutritionally balanced:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=826653

'Eat Healthily on 50p per Day' part two which links to all the recipes:
http://forums.moneysavingexpert.com/showthread.html?t=1157641

A more ethical stance on frugal food:
http://frugal-cooking.co.uk/

Ethical considerations aside, I have degree level qualifications in nutrition and I'd rather feed Value chicken (skin removed) to my children than most convenience foods. Do you own a slow cooker? IMHO it makes cooking from scratch a realistic option for those with financial or time constraints: I can chuck together a stew in five minutes flat, relatively cheap cuts of meat plus a ton of healthy veg and/ or pulses.

Fire_Fox

PasturesNew wrote: »

The trouble with that thread is you can't actually track down the detail, far too much chat.

For 50p/day she's probably got the time to be in the right shops at the right times for cheapos and has the right shops close to her. Probably also grows her own stuff, gets given it (family/friends/allotments) and has a freezer.

I'd imagine somebody with no car, no nearby supermarkets, working full-time and in a flat with no outdoor space couldn't do most of it.

I can do 50p/day ... but you have to love beans!
Even a simple egg and chips is 15p/egg these days. Outrageous.

It's not like you, Pastures, to speculate or be so negative!! I see Weezl74's challenge in the same light as the 'Live on £4K for a year' thread - inspiring, not necessarily to be followed slavishly.

IIIRC Weezl and her husband were both working full-time to start off with, they now have one child and she continues to work on a tight budget. I have a feeling she didn't drive ... IMHO working full-time is an excuse not to shop properly or cook from scratch: you can buy a slow cooker for £7 and throw together a meal in five minutes flat.

Of course it's going to be easier for some groups than others, but this isn't only about singles living in a flat with no car. I tick most of your boxes and I manage fine - I either shop online or I get on the bus and bus or taxi home, I shop every fortnight to make that financially viable. :money: Although where I live is an area of food poverty, Transition Bradford are renovating some allotments within walking distance. If I wasn't so lazy I could get involved and grow my own!

There is nothing stopping you getting a freezer from Freecycle or from a charity shop (my nearest delivers), I agree it's a lot tougher without as batch cooking is less worthwhile and you don't get the benefit of cheap frozen veg. It's nowhere near as difficult if you eat a lot of vegetarian or food as your main protein sources (dried pulses/ eggs) don't need to be refrigerated.

Fire_Fox

ninky wrote: »

not everyone, including myself, has the 'luxury' of a garden. and allotment waiting lists can be prohibitive especially in places like london. i've been on mine for five years. it's now closed and i haven't moved up it at all since feb this year! unfortunately the options open to our parents and grandparents are not always open to us.

smartprice eggs and value meats have severe animal welfare issues attached to them. just because you are poor you shouldn't have to sanction cruelty.

I don't have any green space either but, with the encouragement of Transition Bradford, I am contemplating 'guerilla gardening' a few tubs on our block's flat roof!! I have to work out what the rats won't eat tho ... I don't know where you are in London but there are government or charitable schemes to provide low cost fruit and veg to residents of many deprived areas. There are also Transition groups right across the capital:
http://transitiontowns.org/TransitionNetwork/TransitionInitiative

Whilst I agree wholeheartedly that we shouldn't support battery farming (won't it be gone by 2012? :j), that is a separate argument from whether it is possible to feed your family healthily on a very low budget. I don't believe Value meats are any more cruel than the standard meat, it's only when you get up to free-range and organic levels that animal welfare improves. Again, vegetarian meals are a cheap, healthy and arguably more ethical alternative.

Generali

Fire_Fox wrote: »

It's not like you, Pastures, to speculate or be so negative!! I see Weezl74's challenge in the same light as the 'Live on £4K for a year' thread - inspiring, not necessarily to be followed slavishly.

I think that PN's particular personal quirks mean that she struggles to see shades of grey so that may be problematical.

Further I think (and certainly hope) that PN lives a happy and fulfilled life and that she has made a series of decisions that will leave her happy and content.