Free solar power system. Is it a scam?

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative

keith_r59 wrote: »

I found that the EST calculator makes far too many assumptions that you can't change e.g. roof pitch, roof orientation, where you live etc.

Try using this one:

http://www.solarguide.co.uk/solar-pv-calculator?sc_formtype=3#factors

Calculations for my own system indicate payback in 10-11 years.

In the EST calculator we have assumed you have unshaded South(ish) facing roof at 35deg pitch. You can then select you location by clicking on the map.

In studies we have found the most critical factor to be overshading rather than pitch or orientation. If you want to get really precise you should look at the EU PV prediction tool. This allows you to put in all the variables to work out your harvest. You can then put this directly into our tool.

http://sunbird.jrc.it/pvgis/apps/pvest.php?europe

We had allot of dicussions whether to include electricity price escalation and inflation in our calculator. Putting it in does mean you can end up seeing £1 per KWhr, depending on whose forecast you use, forecasting energy prices is a much debated topic.

In the end we decided not to as the tool is perposely very basic and illistrative. In reality inflation will also help whittle away at the relative value of the loan repayments.

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative

DonSwan wrote: »

The electricity generated can't actually feed back into the national grid, can it? It wouldn't be able to get past the first 240v step-down transformer. I suppose it might be used by someone else in the street, if they are at home at the time it is being generated. But otherwise the panel owner will be receiving the Feed-in Tariff for electricity that doesn't actually get used.

I live in a rural area, in one of only three houses downstream from the transformer. If I bought my own PV panels, would I qualify for the FIT, even though nobody might be using the electricity? Or do you have to be in an area with more houses in order to qualify? Does anyone on here know?

Don Swan - here you actually touch on another issue - problems for your local grid and notifications/permissions to/from your District Network Operator (DNO)

There is currently an uninttended paradox in the system for small scale generation stations under 16A per phase (which works as a 4kW PV array).

There is an electricity grid engineering recommendation called G83/1 to cover the connection of systems of this size to the (national) grid. Under this protocol you can connect a system and only then have to notify your DNO (within 28 days) that you have done so.

However (and here's the paradox) if this installation (in the DNO's view) threatens the robustness of the grid, they have the legal right to tell you to disconnect and then ask that you pay a proportion of the minimum amount that is required in order to upgrade the local network to take the power if you wish to reconnect. (So no generation - so no FIT)

Depending on the age and set up of the transformer, your situation with only three houses downstream of a transformer might get caught by this paradox.

Now I must strongly state that to the best of our knowledge, this situation has actually not happened yet.

The DNOs and Energy Networks Association are very aware of the problem and the potential for bad press. To that end they are convening this spring to work out a new recommendation that answers the paradox.

Now in practical all cases you will be fine. If not our advice centres are briefed on the topic and can help negoitiate a work around with the DNO, which generally the DNOs are keen to do once you can speak to the right person (which is where our advice centres can help).

Also this is normally the domain of your installer, but we have had some occasions where money has been paid before the problem has been identified. Also, for rent-a-roof, it will be the rent-a-roof company that will loose out (and so they will be well used to dealing with the DNO)

John_Pierpoint

Ah have I found an expert at last?

I am the only house downstream of my transformer (I assume we are talking about a box on the top of a pole which has three cables coming out of a black cable climbing the pole?)

Having stepped down the voltage there are brown cables going back down the pole, half way down there are three pink-red gizmos attached to these cables - I believe these are pull out disconnect/fuse (?) isolators.

One set of cables go under a service road that accesses my property and that of a "neighbour" and then climbs another pole for its journey a few hundred yards to me and the "neighbour". I don't know what the other two pink-red gizmos connect to, but my guess is that they are something to do with street lighting etc. on a nearby major road. My "neighbour" is a car repair workshop.

I paid good money to ask EDF (Electricity De France) what size heat pump could be supported by this arrangement. I got a visit from THREE guys who had never seen a ground source heat pump. There was a lot of sucking of teeth and an unofficial conclusion that I would probably not need to pay 3K for a three phase electricity supply, given modern soft start technology (personally I am waiting for a supplier to introduce "inverter" technology to the GSHP market). One guy observed that I (we) had oversized aluminium supply wires ! (That makes sense: the workshop was originally established in the 1960's for the MOT-failure-welding market, but that has dried up somewhat, now that air pollution not rust kills off old bangers.)

So two questions:
1. What will happen to those who are generating summer sunshine electricity that is probably going unused?
2. Would a PV panel system be "overstressed" by high drain intermittent kit attached to the supply, such as my proposed heat pump and my neighbour's compressor? How robust is this technology?

zeupater

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative wrote: »

Don Swan - here you actually touch on another issue - problems for your local grid and notifications/permissions to/from your District Network Operator (DNO)

There is currently an uninttended paradox in the system for small scale generation stations under 16A per phase (which works as a 4kW PV array).

There is an electricity grid engineering recommendation called G83/1 to cover the connection of systems of this size to the (national) grid. Under this protocol you can connect a system and only then have to notify your DNO (within 28 days) that you have done so.

However (and here's the paradox) if this installation (in the DNO's view) threatens the robustness of the grid, they have the legal right to tell you to disconnect and then ask that you pay a proportion of the minimum amount that is required in order to upgrade the local network to take the power if you wish to reconnect. (So no generation - so no FIT)

Depending on the age and set up of the transformer, your situation with only three houses downstream of a transformer might get caught by this paradox.

Now I must strongly state that to the best of our knowledge, this situation has actually not happened yet.

The DNOs and Energy Networks Association are very aware of the problem and the potential for bad press. To that end they are convening this spring to work out a new recommendation that answers the paradox.

Now in practical all cases you will be fine. If not our advice centres are briefed on the topic and can help negoitiate a work around with the DNO, which generally the DNOs are keen to do once you can speak to the right person (which is where our advice centres can help).

Also this is normally the domain of your installer, but we have had some occasions where money has been paid before the problem has been identified. Also, for rent-a-roof, it will be the rent-a-roof company that will loose out (and so they will be well used to dealing with the DNO)

Hi

I believe that the position taken by the DNOs is currently being queried with OFGEM as this seems to conflict with requirements imposed on a DNO by the Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002, the Distribution Price Control Review 5 and the Energy Act 2008.

As the EST must see that the DNO positions as described counter the smooth introduction and uptake of a renewable tecnologies by consumers they must have a view on this and be extremely interested in, possibly closely following, probably even contacted and offered support to the parties querying OFGEM ...... or do they know nothing of the query and would like further information ? ...... or will they read this post and do nothing ? ....

HTH
Z

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative

zeupater wrote: »

Hi

I believe that the position taken by the DNOs is currently being queried with OFGEM as this seems to conflict with requirements imposed on a DNO by the Electricity Safety, Quality and Continuity Regulations 2002, the Distribution Price Control Review 5 and the Energy Act 2008.

As the EST must see that the DNO positions as described counter the smooth introduction and uptake of a renewable tecnologies by consumers they must have a view on this and be extremely interested in, possibly closely following, probably even contacted and offered support to the parties querying OFGEM ...... or do they know nothing of the query and would like further information ? ...... or will they read this post and do nothing ? ....

HTH
Z

Hi Zeupdate - We have read your post. We do have contact with parties querying this topic, though I do not know directly of the detail of the regulation you quote above. We have been involved in helping communities find 'work arounds' where they come across difficulties with the DNO. We have found mainly the difficulties are because the parties have not got to speak to the correct person in the DNO. As I said, this is where we can help.

We have also been asked to take part in the review of G83/1 to try and address the paradox. At the moment we understand the paradox is due to unintended consequences of different peices of legislation which were formulated before it was every thought uptake of micorgeneration would be anything other than a very small niche market.

We have met DNOs and the ENA on this topic and their hearts are in the right place, but like anything that surrounds regulation and standards, especially in the field of utilities, the pace of change can appear somewhat geolocial to an outsider.

John_Pierpoint

Hi Guys,

Please spell out the TLA's (Three Letter Acronyms) the first time time you use them in a posting, it makes comprehension so much easier for us ordinary consumers.

Geologic disposal is a controversial technique often used to dispose radioactive waste. Freudian slip? :eek:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial_period
ENA : Electricity Network Authority?
DNO : District Network Operator (Or is it something to do with using rods to clear drains)?;)

Nothing personal, I'm just searching after some of your knowledge.:T

John

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

Hi Guys,

Please spell out the TLA's (Three Letter Acronyms) the first time time you use them in a posting, it makes comprehension so much easier for us ordinary consumers.

Geologic disposal is a controversial technique often used to dispose radioactive waste. Freudian slip? :eek:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Glacial_period
ENA : Electricity Network Authority?
DNO : District Network Operator (Or is it something to do with using rods to clear drains)?;)

Nothing personal, I'm just searching after some of your knowledge.:T

John

Fair point - I'm normally quite good about avoiding TLAs

ENA - Energy Networks Association

Energy_Saving_Trust_company_representative

John_Pierpoint wrote: »

Ah have I found an expert at last?

I am the only house downstream of my transformer (I assume we are talking about a box on the top of a pole which has three cables coming out of a black cable climbing the pole?)

Having stepped down the voltage there are brown cables going back down the pole, half way down there are three pink-red gizmos attached to these cables - I believe these are pull out disconnect/fuse (?) isolators.

One set of cables go under a service road that accesses my property and that of a "neighbour" and then climbs another pole for its journey a few hundred yards to me and the "neighbour". I don't know what the other two pink-red gizmos connect to, but my guess is that they are something to do with street lighting etc. on a nearby major road. My "neighbour" is a car repair workshop.

I paid good money to ask EDF (Electricity De France) what size heat pump could be supported by this arrangement. I got a visit from THREE guys who had never seen a ground source heat pump. There was a lot of sucking of teeth and an unofficial conclusion that I would probably not need to pay 3K for a three phase electricity supply, given modern soft start technology (personally I am waiting for a supplier to introduce "inverter" technology to the GSHP market). One guy observed that I (we) had oversized aluminium supply wires ! (That makes sense: the workshop was originally established in the 1960's for the MOT-failure-welding market, but that has dried up somewhat, now that air pollution not rust kills off old bangers.)

So two questions:
1. What will happen to those who are generating summer sunshine electricity that is probably going unused?
2. Would a PV panel system be "overstressed" by high drain intermittent kit attached to the supply, such as my proposed heat pump and my neighbour's compressor? How robust is this technology?

To answer your specific questions:-

1. Unused summer generation gets exported back out through your meter and back down the wires to other users on your network, and (depending on the transformer) back to the grid.

The critical part of this statement of course for you is the (depending on the transformer) statement. This statement will also determine whether you can connect a PV array in the first place. Please be aware of the paradox I highlighted in my first post on this topic.

This can only be answered by your DNO so I would try them first. The correct person to speak to may have something like ' Small scale distributed energy' in their job title.

If you can't find this person, speak to one of our advisors on 0800 512012 and ask if you can speak to the microgeneration advice coordinator (or they could call you back). They should hopefully know of the correct person in you DNO. If not, they can escalate the enquiry to our head office and we will find out. If you still have no joy, we can escalate the question right up through the ENA, Ofgem and eventually to DECC. We have these contacts and would be very happy to do this for you should the need occur.

2. The only problem that might occur with an intermittant high drain nieghbour would be if their drain cause the voltage on the mains to drop outside the voltage limits of your Inverter (The box that converts the DC voltage from the PV panels to mains syconised AC). Modern inverters are pretty tolerant so it would be unlikely you would have a problem. I would also expect that the welding shop has 3 phase (415V) power which should avoid drastic voltage dips with just car scale welding and compressor kit.

Also the DNO are legally obliged to maintain the mains within set voltage limits, which should be within you inverter's range. If you were to find the inverter frequently tripped out you would be within your rights to ask the DNO to do something about this. They might then insist the welding shop used a voltage stabiliser. However, as you can imagine, sorting such a problem out may not be a quick process and, depending on your contact at the DNO, may need your perserverance.

I hope this helps

Cardew

Nice to see such helpful and detailed responses from the EST(Energy Saving Trust - to save a rocket from John_Pierpoint;))

jovi_girl

daytona600 wrote: »

they must either rent/lease your roof and collect the FIT
feed in tarrifs - or supply panels free but charge for the BOS
balance of system - inverters , installation etc

w

we are trying to get panels fitted with another company Home sun we have the panels fitted after a surveyor checks the roof and loft space this is a refundable £100 to make sure we are not just getting a free survey,
it is maintained fully for 25 years, the panels then are ours the inverter will probably need replacing around 10 years again free of charge they collect the left over feed intariff ( I think thats correct wording ) a neighbour has had them turn up as a panel was not working correctly he did not know this but they knew so they obvioulsy do keep an eye on them , we are just having problems with our secured loan company allowing them to put panels on OUR roof, we have asked so many questions that we think and hope we have covered all and any problems now and in the future ,maybe different companys are different in their specifications