Free solar power system. Is it a scam?

John_Pierpoint

You have got the right ideas.
If you have a hard to insulate home (solid walls, rooms in the roof, suspended floors) wood is your best renewable option (heat pumps need to keep the whole house warn all the time they are a "trickle" technology) You would need a fuel store the size of a singe garage. Unfortunately the UK has few forests and is only capable of producing 2 million tonnes of wood pellets per year. Makes sense if you are off the gas grid. Wood technology is behind the times and expensive in the UK - we have been spoilt by cheap gas.

Presumably you drag an insulated cover over the pool every night?

The 3p export tariff was added to discourage people from dumping spare electricity into swimming pools, but the rent-a-roof companies cannot stop you using as much as possible of the electricity in your own home.

Jon_Tiffany

tantriclady wrote: »

Would I get in trouble with the free solar PV company for using (like mad) all my electricity and not exporting much? Do you think that's what the Germans have done? What with sauna's, jacuzzi's etc?

Don't laugh, I might have stumbled onto something" lol

No, I dont think so. The offer from ASG is quite clear that you can use all of the generated electricity free of charge. They only get 3p for the exported electric anyway.

In fact, what you are proposing is exactly what the FITs intended. Part of the idea is that you modify your useage pattern. Its much better to use the electric as it generated and on site. Other than the lack of insulation on your house and the swimming pool, you idea is both eco friendly and would maximise the benefit of the free solar pv offers.

beedydad

Hi Jon

Your last post and your post 478 make some good points.

The whole point about going "green" is to be more aware of your energy useage. To seek better ways of using precious resources without compromising or worsening a persons way of life (before it could be forced upon you should people believe in peak oil etc!)

In some regard utilising solar PV is alowing you to maintain energy use.
From many posters it would seem that they have not looked at ways to save on energy - maybe adjusted timings of putting on the washing machine and such like.
There is still much knowledge to be shared on ways to better use electricity from whatever source as we as society use more and more electrical appliances in there many forms from mobiles, ipods, laptops, etc etc. Soit would be great if these were looked at.

Additionally, for example, I provide LED lighting solutions, which is the future, and they can save anything up to 90% of electricity use against most forms of lighting, without any downside such as with CFL's that is becoming more popular and they last a much longer duration - anything up to 50,000 hours.

These along with turning off appliances will/do save energy just around the home or office.

These are much cheaper solutions rather than goig the whole way of installing solar PV. I think solar thermal is a different matter.

Anyway, if people are really "green" and concerned at saving overall energy - the energy costs of the production of solar PV should be studied as most of the production (other than putting the kits together) comes from the far east. The industrial process should be studied to see whether all the good in reducing your personal carbon is offset by an equal or greater carbon production/reduction of the PV? There is much more to be understood about this subject.

Here, we are really studying whether it is financially sensible rather than worrying about carbon emmissions!

Referring to post 478 good points as what is the resale value of the PV kits? The actual panels will not really deteriate before 15 - 20 years so will retain some intrinsic value the rest of the kit - the frame, inverter, grid tie, wiring etc will probable have no resale value. So any creditors, for any comapny going bust will factor this in.

I note Quoia post 480 referring to yet another company spin on this theme who has placed a linear value on the kit over 25 years - so that is actually giving a probable true reflection of the kits value over time - and to whata creditor would expect a person to purchae it for - if you have the cash.

I think when "green loans will help as currently you could get a 10 year £10,000 loan with repayments of £118 per month - that would probably or nearly equate to the total 3 part FIT including your personal usage therefore you would actually pay for it and get up to 15 years free!!! - totally for yourself

Regards

Poosmate

tantriclady wrote: »

Just to play devils advocate here - I have a small swimming pool and so the free solar panels would be invaluable in allowing me to heat my pool (even by a small amount) in the summer as currently it has to hit 25C air temp for at least 4 hours to be comfortable enough to swim. That's very good (and if I get my pals to donate a £1 a swim, I'll make some money too).

Also I think the panels will increase the insulation on my roof in the winter so aiding heat retention.

Iwould get an electric hot water system, so it would store hot water overnight, giving me a warm shower in the morning in the summer.

In the winter I can heat by wood burning stove in my house as it has poor insulation generally (nothing can be done about this) but this aids heat conductivity throughout the house even if it's lost quickly to the outside world. I assume I could still have Tarrif 7 elec for my immersion heater/washing machine etc.

Shame I don't have an electric car to charge in the day and scoot round at night!!

All I then need to do is buy a few freezers and cook up foods during summer and put in freezers for winter (the old harvest method), of course freezers use hardly any elec when full. I jus then heat up by microwave. Food is also cheaper when growing your own in summer.

All I then need to do is work in winter (so I'm not home much) and stay home all summer (in my pool and growing my veg!) - sounds like a pretty eco lifestyle and an enjoyable one.

Would I get in trouble with the free solar PV company for using (like mad) all my electricity and not exporting much? Do you think that's what the Germans have done? What with sauna's, jacuzzi's etc?

I'l find a way of cheaply storing my summer elec (even if I have to "pre-cook" wood with the electricity so it burns easier in winter or something like that!)

Don't laugh, I might have stumbled onto something" lol

LOL! Get out of my head girl! This is almost exactly the lifestyle I'd love to live except for the swimming pool, I'd have that filled with topsoil and have carrots planted in it! lol

I'm not sure if I could have a woodburner in my house as I live in a "smokefree" zone. I know this is going to be a stupid question but I'll ask anyway, does wood give off smoke? And if it does, does that mean it's too dry or it's damp? And "seasoning" mean that the wood is left to dry out?

Sorry, 3 daft questions but I'm no lumberjack and lumberjacking to me is mens work! lol


Quoia, I noticed that too and have signed up for information on their site. I am really sold on the idea of being able to have now and buy later. Ideally, I'd love to be able to buy my panels outright but I'm still working on the finances and being in debt doesn't help.

Having said that, I've produced a financial plan whereby the FiTs earned would not only cover the cost of my electric bill (even if I didn't change the way I use my electric and I could reduce consumption further AND use some of the free stuff) but also sevice my debts as well meaning I'd be debt free over 3 years sooner. And that's factoring only paying the minimum payments on CC's with the FiTs on top not paying lump sums off too when I have spare cash.

The only problem is having the cash up front to do it. I've thought about putting it on my mortgage then when debt free I'd be able to pay the mortgage + about 75% on top each month (subject to clauses on overpayments). Failing that, it would go into a savings account until the savings are equal to the outstanding mortgage - mortgage gets paid off early effectively negating the interest (or most of it) I'd have paid in the initial years by adding the cost of the solar panels to to the mortgage.

Anyone got any thoughts on this idea? Is it completely crazy? or can anyone else see the logic in it?

Poo

P.S. I am aware that the mortgage rates WILL go up but I have paid more on less earnings in the past so will weather the storm again. There are a few notches where my belt can be tightened. And if all else fails it's a case of... "Mommeeee, please help!"

John_Pierpoint

Poosmate wrote: »

I'm not sure if I could have a woodburner in my house as I live in a "smokefree" zone. I know this is going to be a stupid question but I'll ask anyway, does wood give off smoke? And if it does, does that mean it's too dry or it's damp? And "seasoning" mean that the wood is left to dry out?

If you have a high tech. wood pellet burner, that will burn heart wood not bark.
[Bark burns to create an acidic flue gas containing oxides of nitrogen (NOx) - responsible for the brown haze, visible over London on hot still evenings]
Pellets are made to a specified moisture and burnt by specialised burners. The flue gas is clear but still has a smell of wood about it. (There is an office block near London Bridge station heated by wood pellets and the neighbours are not complaining as far as I know.) However you will need a big store for the fuel, which can be handled mechanically (sucked along tubes), as wood volume for volume has only a 1/4 of the heat of anthracite (a hard black almost 100% carbon coal that complies with clean air acts.).
http://www.biomassenergycentre.org.uk/portal/page?_pageid=75,20041&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL

You are probably thinking of a "log burner".
A nice expensive modern one, using techniques such as down draughts to keep smoke off the glass (where is the "Hob Bright") and get a good secondary burn of the flue gasses.

The logs need to be an identifiable wood (Ash is the best) and have been split and stored ("seasoned" for two years to dry out the moisture; then you might be able to comply with the clean air acts (and not annoy your neighbours, who, in urban areas are very sensitive to atmospheric pollution these days).

Such logs are likely to be very expensive in urban areas with limited storage. They are a lifestyle statement like owning a Chelsea Tractor or a real solid fuel Aga.

Given a cheap source of logs and in competition with LPG (calor gas) then wood is very competitive; in a town and competing with condensing natural gas it is not.

Britain, with its 60 - 70 million population, cannot realistically be more than about 5% self sufficient for heating, if we were dependent on home grown wood.

If you can't wait and try to burn logs that are still "green" you make smelly smoke, waste a lot of potential heat boiling off the moisture in the wood and you will have that smelly moisture condensing in your chimney. Your expensive burner & chimney, which these days should be lined with something impermeable installed by someone registered to a Competent Person Scheme (CPS), will be coated with a creosote tar. This as it dries out can fuel a nasty chimney fire.

Jon_Tiffany

John_Pierpoint - excellent post and some very useful info.

In my opinion log burners (along with chimeras) should be banned in urban areas. We have few round here and the owners put household rubbish in them - painted/treated wood, plastics and all sorts. Not very pleasant and I dont like the idea of my children (or anyone elses for that matter) being exposed to such toxins.

The council did pay them a visit, and they stopped burning rubbish - for about a week.

In rural areas with properly seasoned wood coming from managed woodland - in that scenario they are great.

Cardew

Some excellent points made on this thread, but with regard to the ASG scheme the position is quite simple.

You are renting out your roof and the 'rent' you receive' is simply how much of the generated electricity you can use.

The ASG system generates approx 3,000kWh per year. Most of that either side of midday with far more in summer than winter.

The obvious question is how much of that electricity you can use and what is it worth!

Most websites/personal experiences estimate that you will use around 50% of generated electricity for small systems. As the ASG system is large, around 40% - 1,200kWh per year - is probably realistic.

The electricity you save should be priced at Tier 2/secondary unit prices - around 8p/kWh with discounts etc. So IMO £100 a year saving is realistic.

Poosmate

Thanks John and Jon for your replies. I have quite a large garage that I thought I'd be able to store wood in. I have this rather romantic view of log burners (stoves) that I could gather all the deadfall from around here (we have a lot of large trees), I have a places where I can get a regular supply of pallets (although they are a beggar to break - cus I'm girlie!) and I'd also be prepared to skip-rat. I would hate to have to regularly buy wood! The plan would be to start foraging a few years before the planned installation.

Cardew, you make a good point about the savings on your electric bills, it is minimal. Although £8 per month is better than nothing (if you don't mind pimping out your roof). I think the people (consumers not the solar panel owners) who would "benefit" most would be those who are at home all day, every day as obviously they'd be able to see when to do the washing, drying, ironing, etc. using the "free" electric. I wonder how many would get into a habit of doing certain things at certain times during the summer months and how many would find fitting their normal lives around "the sun's shining I have to do washing/ironing now!" difficult to keep up.

To me it could be like those people who go on an exotic all inclusive holiday and never leave their resort lest they miss a freebie. There will also be those who strike the right balance, making the most of what they can but not letting it rule their lives. Then there will be those who book the all inclusive and are never at the resort because they want to try the "real" local cuisine/entertainment - they should have gone self catering lol. Not a brilliant analogy but I hope you get my drift.

There's little point in me going for the free set up because I work full time so I would never use anywhere near 50% over the weekend, probably not even 20%. I can make that kind of saving on my leccy bill by not leaving the tv on when I'm not watching it - it's usually only on as background noise anyway!

No, if I'm going to have it, I'm going to have to pay for it to make it long term financially worthwhile.


As I asked earlier, anyone got any thoughts about my cunning financial plan below? I've edited it a bit:

"I've produced a financial plan whereby the FiTs earned (£700pa?) would not only cover the cost of my electric bill (£336pa) (even if I didn't change the way I use my electric and I could reduce consumption further AND use some of the free stuff (say 10% making leccy bill £300pa)) but also sevice my debts as well meaning I'd be debt free over 3 years sooner (paying off an extra £400ish pa). And that's factoring only paying the minimum payments on CC's with the FiTs on top not paying lump sums off too when I have spare cash.

I've thought about putting it on my mortgage then when debt free I'd be able to pay the mortgage + about 75% on top each month (subject to clauses on overpayments). Failing that, it would go into a savings account until the savings are equal to the outstanding mortgage - mortgage gets paid off early effectively negating the interest (or most of it) I'd have paid in the initial years by adding the cost of the solar panels to to the mortgage."

Please advise.

Thanks

Poo

Cardew

Poosmate,

As stated earlier in this thread, I am not saying that £100pa or so is minimal, but simply that people should get prospective savings into perspective.


With regard to your questions,there are a couple of other threads on the financial viability of 'self-financing' Solar PV systems and you might get some answers from reading these threads, or posting your questions in those threads.

This thread is specifically about ASG type systems.

beedydad

Cardews and others

The "free" deal is giving away too much to these companies.

I have suggested before that for a householder to "rent" their roof space should get real rent in addition to the free solar generated electricity you, not just generate, but actually use.

You mention it is around half the total - so do not forget that the install companies get their FIT on the full amount - you get your saving on 50% ie the bit you use.

My solution is to negotiate hard to get an annual rent in addition - my start off point would be an extra £100 per anum over the term

Gives the householder a better return and still gives the install companis a very decent profit over 25 years - may take them longer but thats not our problem!!

Regards