mvr, market value reduction

dunstonh

Dh just because someone has a different view to you doesnt mean they are being intentionally argumentative.

No it doesnt. However, you know exactly what Aviva are like and you know the Aviva product. Yet you argue those points.

Yes but with respect Im not advising the OP not to complain.

Nor am I or anyone else. The OP should have at least checked the information first.

The OP has nothing to loose by complaining but could potentially loose something by following your advice.

The OP has nothing to lose. The adviser in question does, even if not guilty. It also creates extra work. She could not potentially loose anything by following my advice which was to just check the suitability report first.

However I wasnt aware that the DIRECT calls from the public go to the IFA call centres as well now, when I dealt with them they had different centres.

It was separate until a few years ago. Now, unless you ring a dedicated number for a network or firm you get asked if you are the IFA or policyholder. Most of the letters they send out to IFAs with telephone numbers on use the same call centre staff for policyholders.

So given what you say about Aviva staff why you do seem so unwilling to concede the Principality Building Society sales staff might have not given the OP the correct information or more commonly not the full information.

Because the servicing of the staff is more down to lack of knowledge of the thousands of different types and versions of products they have issued over the years and their lack of authorisation in being able to discuss most of them beyond generic information. The building society adviser may be a tied rep but they do not have the same restrictions.

You always say avoid saleforces and I thought it was because they have a reputation for putting sales above everything and being economical with the facts sometimes.

Yes. Salesforces should be avoided. However, you do tend to find that things like suitability reports and key features do get issued. The advice may be wrong or basic and the product expensive but you do tend to find a suitability report is issued. That is by far the most important document and the one that any complaint will be decided on more than any other. That is why the OP was asked to look at it before putting the complaint in.

whiteflag_3

dunstonh wrote: »

However, you do tend to find that things like suitability reports and key features do get issued. The advice may be wrong or basic and the product expensive but you do tend to find a suitability report is issued

Last post from me on this as I think this is going no where now but hopefully its helped the op.

I would just like to comment re suitability reports - in the real life cases I have dealt with I have seen three where the suitability report was not issued although a copy was produced on request- it appeared the the "nice girls" had obviously forgotten to post them.

ps. a broker consultant told me recently that he has an IFA firm on his panel that never do suitability reports!!!

BULLNOTBEAR

Gosh you guys have really had a dig at each other. I recommend you call a truce and both go back to do your work. And to be honest I don't know where you get the time to post all these messages!

jem16

ruthwilliams wrote: »

thank you for all of your advice, some have said that i acted hastily, however, if you were told that after thinking you have an investment that you don't, then you would be angry too.

Ruth - perhaps stop, think and take the emotion out of it.

I got angry, the same as you, 7 years ago, when I had the misfortune of having to claim on my husband's life insurance policy. As far as I remembered it was for £80k. However when I phoned to claim I was told it was for far less as it was a decreasing term insurance policy. I argued the toss and was asked if I wanted to complain which I said I did.

However whilst I waited for the paperwork to come through I looked out the original policy paperwork. I soon discovered that I had got exactly what we had asked for and that it had been explained at the time. We wanted a cheaper policy as I wasn't working and my husband's pension scheme also provided life cover so it was really just an added bonus whilst the kids were younger.

When I did get the paperwork through I wrote to say that I would not be complaining.

some have said that i should have tried to dig deeper, which i did and still got the same reply.

All you were asked is what the suitability letter (from the adviser) and the policy documents (from Aviva ) said. Unfortunately you have not replied to that.

That way you could have been given better advice if there are grounds for complaint. There may be, there may be not. However wouldn't it be better to know how best to word your complaint if there are grounds?

garethwilliams_2

Thank you Whiteflag for your support and advice. I am Ruth's husband and she has left this forum after looking for advice and help and not getting a forum internet warrior on her case :mad:

I can tell you now that we do not have a suitability letter, we do have a 9 page document I think it is from Aviva.

When we originally took out the policy we were sold a guaranteed investment fund. The documents came and we stored safely in case we needed them. Not being savvy with these types of documents we didn't question anything on them.

Only recently were these documents 'exhumed' from their safe place as we nneded to withdraw some of the funds we invested. Now we know there are fee's for withdrawing funds that change from year to year depending on which year your within - that is not the case.
We spoke with a Aviva advisor about withdrawing funds and they informed us their was this fee - cannot remember what its called but its written down somewhere and we were happy with that. The advisor didn't mention anything about this MVR fee. Yes looking into the 'gubbings' of the paperwork it does mention this fee but the advisor advised us incorrectly as they failed to mention this. They told us everything we had to do in terms of photocopying, covering letter, signatures etc but not that so when we're about to get the funds we have a nasty shock.

Anyway - the above is not the 'major' concern we have. The major concern is the fact we was sold a guaranteed investment fund. If it made money great, if it didn't thne you'll get you initial investment back in full. When we called to find out what was needed above to get the funds we wanted out there was confuson as to what we had as we had a 'with profits fund' that has an IPG tag I think it was on it. The advisor didn't know what this was so there was a pass from pillar to post with other advisors to find out what it was and they came back with the fact it was a guaranteed investment fund plan but linked somehow to the with profits fund. Phew - that was ok as that meant our money was safe but now after my wife calling them again they said they were wrong last time and its not guaranteed at all so if thats the case then we have been mis sold a policy and yes we will bloody complain like hell as thats all of our life savings there and if that plans goes dead in the water so does all our money - our retirement etc.

We were also informed as I think it was covered somewhere above that if we took out any funds early then when the plan matured these funds would be taken out of the guaranteed amount i.e. £35k in - take out £5k so if it went balls up we'd still get out remaining £30k back

Thank god all calls there are recorded as its not our word against theirs as its all on tape

dunstonh

Phew - that was ok as that meant our money was safe but now after my wife calling them again they said they were wrong last time and its not guaranteed at all so if thats the case then we have been mis sold a policy and yes we will bloody complain like hell as thats all of our life savings there and if that plans goes dead in the water so does all our money - our retirement etc.

So, the product you have is geared for 5 years as you expected and it does have a 5th year penalty free withdrawal point (free of exit charges and no MVR). This does appear to meet your objectives and your understanding.

The problem then it appears is that Aviva are not being consistent with their responses (and that is covered in this thread already as not being unusual). However, as it stands you are complaining about the product rather than the service received from Aviva.

can tell you now that we do not have a suitability letter, we do have a 9 page document I think it is from Aviva.

The suitability report is a report from the adviser or sales rep that outlines the reasons. It may have varying names but it is personalised to you and outlines the reasons why the recommendation has been made and the key risks. It is typically issues post sale (within a few days) and in the case of banks, is often posted by a third party to the transaction and not the adviser themselves. However, we dont know who sends this one out in your case.

We were also informed as I think it was covered somewhere above that if we took out any funds early then when the plan matured these funds would be taken out of the guaranteed amount i.e. £35k in - take out £5k so if it went balls up we'd still get out remaining £30k back

That is correct. The guarantee is that on the 5th anniversary, if you withdraw the funds you will get back a minimum of what you paid in minus what you have withdrawn. Exactly what you thought it was and what I have been saying it is.

Thank god all calls there are recorded as its not our word against theirs as its all on tape

The calls wont matter as your wife has complained about the advice. Not the service from Aviva. Or have you now changed the nature of the complaint and who have you sent it to?

It is also a good idea to stop thinking of the Aviva call centre staff as advisers. They are not. The only adviser you have spoken with is the one that recommended the product in the first place. Those on the phones are not advisers. Aviva strictly forbids them from giving advice as well.

garethwilliams_2

dunstonh wrote: »

So, the product you have is geared for 5 years as you expected and it does have a 5th year penalty free withdrawal point (free of exit charges and no MVR). This does appear to meet your objectives and your understanding.

The problem then it appears is that Aviva are not being consistent with their responses (and that is covered in this thread already as not being unusual). However, as it stands you are complaining about the product rather than the service received from Aviva.

The suitability report is a report from the adviser or sales rep that outlines the reasons. It may have varying names but it is personalised to you and outlines the reasons why the recommendation has been made and the key risks. It is typically issues post sale (within a few days) and in the case of banks, is often posted by a third party to the transaction and not the adviser themselves. However, we dont know who sends this one out in your case.
That is correct. The guarantee is that on the 5th anniversary, if you withdraw the funds you will get back a minimum of what you paid in minus what you have withdrawn. Exactly what you thought it was and what I have been saying it is.

The calls wont matter as your wife has complained about the advice. Not the service from Aviva. Or have you now changed the nature of the complaint and who have you sent it to?

It is also a good idea to stop thinking of the Aviva call centre staff as advisers. They are not. The only adviser you have spoken with is the one that recommended the product in the first place. Those on the phones are not advisers. Aviva strictly forbids them from giving advice as well.

God you really are an argumentative person :think:

No other info from the IFA - we kept it all - we have other letters from Aviva but the main document we have is the booklet jobbie I said about above.

I think somewhere you have brushed over whats been said - we're not happy about both the service we have received off them and also thier product. You are very quick to jump to their defense - are you linked or do you sell thier products - on commission by any chance for pushing their products is it ??

Firstly the 'non advisor who advised us but really shouldn't - position unknown as not an advisor' gives us incorrect advice and also incorrect fee's and then we have totally in the dark as they don't know their elbow from their !!!! if we indeed have a guaranteed plan or not as they are now saying we don't. If thats the case then its a miss sale on POS. Simple as - no nonsense. I've worked for HBOS and Blackhorse and if that happened their it would be a breach of FSA guidlines - same as if its sold face to face with an IFA.

Are we gonna argue some more or can we turn this into a polite discussion ?

I can see why my wife is feeling disheartened about this thread and now wants to cancel her account here

jem16

garethwilliams wrote: »

I can tell you now that we do not have a suitability letter, we do have a 9 page document I think it is from Aviva.

The document will have the address of where it came from. If it's the same 9 page dicument you will see it will have Norwich Union as its letterhead. Is this the one you mean?

In this diocument it will also state the actual fund you have. What does it say?

Aviva are like any other company as far as speaking to their call centre - sometimes you get someone who knows what they are talking about and sometimes you don't. You won't get advice though - you will just get generic answers.

The advice should come from the adviser who sold you the policy, i.e. Principality Building Society. Have you spoken to anyone there?

garethwilliams_2

Hiya Jem - Yes my wife has spoken with the Principality and they said they are going to look into it and will be in contact with us within 8 weeks I think my said it was.

The document says on the front 'Portfolio Level Option' and at the foot of the front page it says Norwich Union

It says on the policy schedule page:
Funds - W-P Inflation Protected Guarantee S4 100%

Thrugelmir

As a bystander. Merely passing an observation. I have found some comments quite intriguing.

When we originally took out the policy we were sold a guaranteed investment fund. The documents came and we stored safely in case we needed them. Not being savvy with these types of documents we didn't question anything on them.

I've worked for HBOS and Blackhorse and if that happened their it would be a breach of FSA guidlines - same as if its sold face to face with an IFA.

I would have thought reading the policy document for accuracy and content would be of primary importance.

You are well clued up on the responsibilities of an IFA. From your background are more financially savvy than most. As you knew what sort of product you wanted. Very specific. Suggesting you were asking for a product rather than being sold it. Quite possibly resulting in a misunderstanding. That would have been detected at the outset had you read the documentation.

Does this issue have more with the loss of retirement savings than anything else. We would all like a product that guarantees capital with no risk of loss. But am unsure how such a product could be funded. As someone would have to make a loss.

I've never been a great lover of financial advisors. No disrespect to you Dunstonh, as I am firmly with you with the facts as they stand. As at a point responsibilty belongs with the individual for their actions.