Illegal use of church car park for sports event parking?

usignuolo

I live in a town with a large sports stadium on the outskirts. My OH was out and about in the neighbourhood recently when a major sporting event was on. He noticed that the carpark next to a local church (owned by the church) had a sign up offering paid for parking for the event. Nothing odd about that, lots of places locally with free parking at the weekend do the same on match day. Only thing was he had never seen this particular car park on offer before and he said it was being run by some very dodgy looking heavies, who he seriously doubted had any connection with the church concerned.

What is legal position? I would think it was trespass, but a recent indirect experience of a similar situation (heavies setting up shop on land they did not own and seeking parking fees, clamping etc.) makes me wonder. In that case the police refused to get involved, saying it was the landowners problem not theirs - although of course landowner did not know anything about it.

There does appear to be a legal loophole here -there appears to be no law covering selling access to land you do not own or are not licenced to manage. When Ken Livingstone's race advisor Lee Jasper hit the headlines a couple of years back, the then Assistant Police Commissioner Brian Paddick said he had first come across Mr Jasper, selling street pitches he did not own at Nottinghill Carnival. No action was taken against him either.

So is it a legal loophole? Ae the police correct in saying it is a civil matter, like squatting and so does not concern them? is the problem that to break the law there has to be a law to break, and selling access to land you do not own is not covered by any existing laws?

BFG_2

Yes, yes and yes.

It's like shop rentals...........police aren't interested in who's charging you rent for a shop that you're using.

Chippy_Minton_2

OP, what is your concern with this?

maninthestreet

Chippy_Minton wrote: »

OP, what is your concern with this?

I suspect the concern is that you pay these people to park on land they do not own, then get clamped by a clamping firm who operate for the actual landowners, for parking on private property without permission of the landowners.

usignuolo

Mainstreets point is a good one and valid.

Also my concern was whether or not it was worth raising this as an issue at the local neighbourhood forum which meets shortly - members of the church concerned attend along with our "neighbourhood" policemen. As residents we know from bitter experience that the local police round here have no interest in doing anything about any crimes they designate as civil matters, like squatters.

There are a number of plots like the church's car park, which have the potential to be hijacked by cowboy squatters, and I would be better approaching the church directly and also warning locals on our community website and in the local paper that this is happening and it is up to them to police if the local police cannot help.

You may wonder why I am not asking our local police this question, all I can say is based on our experience with squatters, our local police are about as much use as a chocolate teapot when it comes to civil matters - either they give no advice or misleading advice in the hope you and the problem will go away.

Chippy_Minton_2

usignuolo wrote: »

You may wonder why I am not asking our local police this question

I know why you're not asking the Police, because it's got nothing to do with them. Or you for that matter.

Do we even know they don't have permission from the land owner? Not yet no.

Mark_Hewitt

All that is necessary for the triumph of evil is that good men do nothing.

usignuolo

Chippy Minton, I assume we won't find you standing in line to be a "Concerned Local Citizen" any time soon then ?

Actually I am a member of new Local Residents Consultative Panel for our Neighbourhood. We are in a CPZ which has recently been extended despite residents voting against it and parking generally and local enforcement is a very hot topic.

I was hoping for a steer from someone here on the general legality of situation when these cowboys who demand money and clamp your cars, turn up in your neighbourhood, and gave an example where I thought this had occurred recently near us.

Trespassing is a civil offence, but I imagine that demanding money from the public to enter the land, which is not yours and where you do not have permission, might be aggravated trespass, which is criminal behaviour.

Chippy_Minton_2

So as said do you actually know they don't have permission to charge for the carpark?

It could be aggraveted tresspass yes.

Offence of aggravated trespass
(1) A person commits the offence of aggravated trespass if he trespasses on land in the open air and, in relation to any lawful activity which persons are engaging in or are about to engage in on that or adjoining land in the open air, does there anything which is intended by him to have the effect—
(a) of intimidating those persons or any of them so as to deter them or any of them from engaging in that activity,
(b) of obstructing that activity, or
(c) of disrupting that activity.
(2) Activity on any occasion on the part of a person or persons on land is “lawful” for the purposes of this section if he or they may engage in the activity on the land on that occasion without committing an offence or trespassing on the land.
(3) A person guilty of an offence under this section is liable on summary conviction to imprisonment for a term not exceeding three months or a fine not exceeding level 4 on the standard scale, or both.
(4) A constable in uniform who reasonably suspects that a person is committing an offence under this section may arrest him without a warrant.
(5) In this section “land” does not include—
(a) the highways and roads excluded from the application of section 61 by paragraph (b) of the definition of “land” in subsection (9) of that section; or
(b) a road within the meaning of the [S.I. 1993/3160 (N.I. 15).] Roads (Northern Ireland) Order 1993.

However you as yet have no evidence of tresspass. Maybe the church have found a new way of paying for their roof repairs.

I still don't see how being a member of new Local Residents Consultative Panel for our Neighbourhood makes it your business or concern. Have the church consulted you on this matter or is your panel stuck for issues interfere in?

Wig

Ask the Vicar

Chippy_Minton_2

Wig wrote: »

Ask the Vicar

Is he a mamber of the forum?:rotfl:





Maybe the OP should have asked him first.