Yesterday's farm..what if it comes back?

ceridwen

rhiwfield wrote: »

If communities have grouped together to produce food then I suspect they would defend that resource. Just as those without access to food would seek to take that resource. Not a pleasant scenario and you could see it being played across a global scale.

CORRECT.

Obviously those who are producing food - whether at an individual or group level - are doing it for their own benefit. Equally obviously - their surplus produce would be shared with others who arent producing any one way or another.

But - the fastest way to make food producers (at any level) throw up their hands in despair and give up doing so would be if it was found that other people who hadnt had that degree of forethought were nicking the produce of those who HAD thought ahead and planned and then no-one would get any food.

Jojo_the_Tightfisted

ceridwen wrote: »

But - the fastest way to make food producers (at any level) throw up their hands in despair and give up doing so would be if it was found that other people who hadnt had that degree of forethought were nicking the produce of those who HAD thought ahead and planned and then no-one would get any food.

Good point, but don't forget, even with the best forethought in the world, if someone does not have access to or ownership of the means to produce food - land - I'm not convinced they should be regarded as being totally at fault.

In any case, I'm pretty sure that nobody would throw their hands up and say 'well, that's it, I'm not going to feed myself or anyone else, because so-and-so's gone and spoiled it!' It would be pretty shortsighted as they would be spiteing themselves, not to mention the fact that they would probably be making considerable profit from the elevated prices they would be able to charge with food more scarce.

So, to protect themselves, as they control the means of production, they would have considerably more power and would be able to insist that punitive laws were introduced to deal with the theft of food. Transportation or execution at Tyburn, anyone?

Charco_2

Hey guys, thanks for the stark, stark warnings. Should i put this near apocalyptic break-down in my diary for this week or next week?

Does anyone have anything cheerier to say... something that might perhaps more closely resemble reality!?

rhiwfield

Charco wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for the stark, stark warnings. Should i put this near apocalyptic break-down in my diary for this week or next week?

Does anyone have anything cheerier to say... something that might perhaps more closely resemble reality!?

One of the reasons I didnt want a peak oil debate is because views seem to polarise between doom-mongers and naysayers. There is no doubt food security has moved up the political agenda but it certainly isnt clear that its either apocalypse now or tomorrow. With the clear message that Britain will go substantially nuclear for energy the government has moved the energy debate boundaries. But the food debate is another matter and without a continuing (and increasing?) fertiliser input from oil I'm unsure that the world will be able to feed an ever expanding population.

IF Peak Oil were to occur in the next few years, I have little doubt that governments will try to mitigate the impact by genetic breeding of new crops, bringing more land into production and a host of other measures.

And no, I wouldnt put it in your diary, perish the thought, but as to whether the posters are correct in their idea of a future reality, I'd suggest neither of us know. I recall once forecasting currency trends and the pattern that emerged from past data was long term trend lines with oscillations around the trend line. IF (again) Peak oil does occur, the trend will be painful to adjust to but those oscillations could be severe.

Who to believe?

ixwood

It's not just oil based fertilisers. Pesticides and herbicides are normally fossil fuel based too. And the tractors/machinery that plough, sow, harvest, dry, process, transport the food etc.

Our whole society is built on fossil fuels and the huge amount of energy they contain.

Global water resources are under strain too. Water table levels are lowering in a lot of the world and some rivers and lakes are now permanently gone and being removed from maps.

I'm been quietly preparing for peak everything for 4 or 5 years now, but I'm less concerned about it now than ever. Things are starting to happen and progress is being made.

We've had cheap fossil fuels for 3 decades now, so we didn't need to look for more supplies or alternatives. That gave the impression that there was no more oil to find or viable alternatives. After the food/energy crisis a couple of years ago, things changed. As always, the answer to high prices, is high prices.

There's been some HUGE oil discoveries over the last year or so, as well as all sorts of research and technological advances to both get more out of existing resources and new alternatives (algae based oil anyone? They could even feed it excess CO2 from power generation and the like).

So, in summary, I was in the we're screwed camp until recently, but now, I'm not that concerned. I'm ready to be amazed by human ingenuity and resourcefulness over the coming decades. Necessity is the mother of invention after all!

ixwood

In terms of feeding yourself, you get by when you have too. I garden with virtually no external input now anyway.

My advice to anyone concerned would be to eliminate debt, and aim to be as self sufficient as you can be. Wood burning stoves, highly insulated house, rain water harvesting, solar panels, planting fruit and nut tress and bushes, as well as fire and possibly building wood if feasible etc.

Obviously learn organic gardening and as many practical skills as possible. A martial art would also be good. I've got books on all manner of practical skills. Livestock, plumbing, masonry, carpentry, bee keeping, mechanics, electronics, herbal remedies etc.

Even if it does all blow over, a self sufficientish life would be helpful in all manner of situations, not just peak oil caused society collapse. War, droughts, floods, power cuts, strikes, supply problems, flu pandemic, snow in's etc.

Davesnave

Charco wrote: »

Hey guys, thanks for the stark, stark warnings. Should i put this near apocalyptic break-down in my diary for this week or next week?

Does anyone have anything cheerier to say... something that might perhaps more closely resemble reality!?

We all choose our realities.

I agree with rhiwfield that this discussion should be moderate, rather than 'tin hat,' and I wouldn't class it as apocalyptic. However, each person brings to a debate what their perception allows them to see. I like the boards on MSE, because they encompass not only a social chit chat, but also serious debate. People can duck in and out as they wish, especially if it gets uncomfortable. If they stick with it though, the exchange of ideas could be life-changing.

It was on that embarrassing, unpolitically-correct, Debate House Prices & The Economy board that I first came across the idea that Great Britain's economy was headed for a fall, and with it, our beloved house prices. At first, I rejected these ideas with the usual 'It can't happen here' responses, but eventually, on reflection, I began to change my views. From there, it took a few years, getting our house sold, renting and seeing what we could swap it for. As it turned out, we exchanged a semi-dee in suburbia for a smallholding in Devon, which is far from depressing.

As one of my cyber-chums says in her sig: If you do what you have always done, you will get what you always got.

artichoke

hi all

For those who would like to increase their food security but don't have a back garden why not see if there is a garden share scheme in your town or a Community Supported Agriculture Project starting up?

Garen share's are often organised by transition towns so those without acess to garden can grow veg in the garden of a person who is unable to use their garden due to ill health or time constraints.

Community Supported Agricultre Projects (CSA) are expanding rapidly across the county in both rural and urban areas. Look on the soil association website for details of up and running schemes but i know the number of schemes is set to more than double as loads are in the planning phase. Through CSA's the community can get involved in a farm either by physical help or financial and guarrantee themselves a share of the harvest.

We are in the process of setting up 3 csa schemes in my rural town and it is a real way for people to learn the skills of farming and food production and to increase their access to local usually organic food without having to pay the excessive supermarket prices for organic.

art

valk_scot

My nieces always say if the apocalypse arrives, they're going to abandon their parents and move in with me....

No I'm not self sufficient but I've got a skill set that would go a long way towards making me so, more so than most folk round here in my dormitory town anyway. Twelve years on a allotment teaches you about growing crops and land management, for example. I'm not 100% self sustaining in that I do use seaweed and the ocassional donated bag of hourse manure from a neighbour, but I do use urine (mine and the kids when we're up there) and would be happy to use more. I have kept rabbits and chickens in the past and know how to kill and butcher them. I grow willow and hazel and can make baskets and plant supports etc. Could I feed my family (and nieces)? Not at the moment and not on the land area I have availible, but if I had some extra labour I could do quite a lot more.

Hubby can shoot. I can sew, spin, knit, weave a bit. We both have woodworking skills. I'm a good cook, from scratch. I'm a very practical person and know a little bit of a lot of country crafts. We could barter skills for food that we couldn't produce ourselves. I don't see myself being able to survive solo in the middle of a large field with what we grew as our only source of food, but put us down in a traditional small mixed village type community and yes, possibly.

The one thing I know nothing about is large animal husbandry. Pigs, a cow, sheep and goats. How fast could I learn if I had to, or starve? Give me a teacher and I'd learn. I think if the apocalypse happened then there would be a mad scramble to relearn all the skills of self sufficiency pretty darn quick, don't you?

rhiwfield

INTERESTING REPORT by the Environment Food and Rural Affairs Committte earlier this year. Balanced, even though I didnt agree with all the conclusions and quietly critical of Defra's activity or rather lack of it. Its the kind of report that begins to justify the parliamentary committee system.

Note the allotment recommendation