Problem with the floor

pruney

Hello
We're having work done at the moment (outhouse conversion and new kitchen) and my builder has uncovered a problem with the floor in the dining room and kitchen. Whilst I thought it was a solid concrete floor under the lino and carpet, we've now found out it's tiles laid on top of about an inch of concrete and then soil and black ash underneath. Part of the kitchen has sunk down, which we thought might have been due to a leaking stopcock but now think it's because of this floor. :eek:

The builders have said we can get the building inspector out if we want to but then we have to do whatever he says we have to do. The builder has suggested either digging it out and laying hardcore, dampproof membrane, concrete etc or raising the floor but then he can't guarantee we won't get a problem in a few years. I asked what he would do and he said he'd do it properly and dig it out etc but that will add at least 3 weeks onto the schedule and then there's the cost (their rate is £100 per day each and there is 2 of them) of man hours plus materials, skip, etc. I estimate that this would be at least another £4-5k on top of what we're already paying.

Oh and the reason I got him to check the dining room floor as well is because we're having solid oak flooring running through from the dining room to the kitchen.

Has anyone had this problem before and how would you/ did you remedy it? The house was built in 1883 and is a victorian terrace. The living room and hallway have a cellar underneath them.

I'm not adverse to getting the building inspector out again, it's just the cost and getting this all done before christmas. I'm less bothered about walking on dodgy floors than I am about spending all this money (£12k plus) on a new kitchen, utility room, downstairs loo and new boiler to have the floor falling in!

If anyone can offer me any advice (or words of comfort!) it'd be much appreciated as my brain has gone a bit headless chicken; thought my nice new kitchen would be fitted by this time next week

illzlee

I reckon you already know the answer to this question. I would aggre with your builder, that the floor needs to be re-laid and probably the building inspector will want to see some insulation in there too (a good idea). There's no quick or easy way of doing it, although i reckon you should be able to get it done for under 2K - your builders rate is very good by the way! :money:

the only problem you haven't considered perhaps is drying time. Technically, concrete should be left to set over 28 days. In reality very few peopel do this and you should only add 2/3 weeks onto your programme in terms of direct consequence of carrying out this work. Chin up, this is one of the pitfalls of owning such a wonderful older property i'm afraid.:A

leveller2911

If you intend to lay an Oak floor after the remedial work is carried out, it may take months rather than a few weeks for the screed to dry out enough to put an Oak floor down.....
Good luck

edgex

if youve already got builders in doing work, may as well get them to get everything done properly at the same time

or build a cellar :rotfl:

pruney

illzlee wrote: »

I reckon you already know the answer to this question. I would aggre with your builder, that the floor needs to be re-laid and probably the building inspector will want to see some insulation in there too (a good idea). There's no quick or easy way of doing it, although i reckon you should be able to get it done for under 2K - your builders rate is very good by the way! :money:

the only problem you haven't considered perhaps is drying time. Technically, concrete should be left to set over 28 days. In reality very few peopel do this and you should only add 2/3 weeks onto your programme in terms of direct consequence of carrying out this work. Chin up, this is one of the pitfalls of owning such a wonderful older property i'm afraid.:A

Thanks, I know, I was just hoping for something magic and unheard of to make the schedule not run over. I do love this old pile of bricks, I'm just missing my kitchen and was expecting it back by the end of next week. Oh well, at least the state we've been living in so far will seem like a picnic as our new kitchen will now have to be stored in our bedroom whilst the work is done

pruney

leveller2911 wrote: »

If you intend to lay an Oak floor after the remedial work is carried out, it may take months rather than a few weeks for the screed to dry out enough to put an Oak floor down.....
Good luck

Thanks I didn't know that. I was toying with the idea of just living with the concrete floor over christmas and have them lay the oak floor in the new year. The advantage to this would also be that my niece and nephew who are staying with us for a fortnight over christmas can spill as much stuff as they want over it without me freaking out :rotfl:

pruney

edgex wrote: »

if youve already got builders in doing work, may as well get them to get everything done properly at the same time

or build a cellar :rotfl:

Tee hee, I have a cellar actually, I did briefly think I could dig out the other half - but it was only a brief respite in the horrific realisation that I'd been living in a glorified shed for 3 years :rolleyes:

furndire

When we built our house, we put a floating floor in the kitchen, which we foolishly tiled. They cracked. Then we had a patch that sort of sunk in - dug around it and concreted it in - hoping a laminate floor would work - it started to come apart. Earlier this year we bit the bullet and had the whole lot dug out and damp proof membrane and all the rigamarole concreted the lot and laid cushion floor. How I wish we had done it properly the first time round. It would have save us a small fortune.

leveller2911

pruney wrote: »

Thanks I didn't know that. I was toying with the idea of just living with the concrete floor over christmas and have them lay the oak floor in the new year. The advantage to this would also be that my niece and nephew who are staying with us for a fortnight over christmas can spill as much stuff as they want over it without me freaking out :rotfl:

Ive seen so many timber floors having to be taken up and re-laid due to expansion from moisture.The floor must be completely dry.

If you intend to lay say a "Junkers" floor which is solid oak, and pre-finished which is a floating floor then you put a membrane down first which is a barrier against a certain amount of moisture.

Junkers flooring is very good, easy to lay and goes down on metal clips,pre-finished so theres no sanding or sealing etc..........

Good luck Pruney, hope it all goes well........

David_Aldred

Hi Pruney,
If you are going down the route of laying a new solid floor please be mindful of ensuring the damp proof membrane to the floor is taken into the damp proof course in the perimeter walls and sealed to give one complete barrier to ground moisture. The solid floor will move seperately to the walls and a gap often occurs between the two where dampness can emerge and affect timbers and plaster directly above. Remove the black ash entirely as it contains sulphates which are disruptive to Ordinary Portland cement used in the concrete to the floor and you may wish to consider using or requesting a sulphate resisiting cement in the concrete ordered.

Complying to current Building Regs and given that the new floor will have a damp proof memebrane beneath it all that construction moisture can only evaporate one way and that is into your kitchen. The slowest thing to dry down in a new build is the solid floors and be aware they may take well over a year to dry down! Yes that is twelve months! You can try to trap this moisture by laying asphalt on top before you lay the wood floor as the asphalt is impervious but its not ideal laying moisture sensitive flooring over a structural floor that you know to be still damp within it.

In any case before you lay any moisture sensitive flooring especially wood you need to have those who will be laying it come and inspect and undertake a humidity test to the floor in a few places. This is done over a minimum of 72 hours.

Get the floor layer to take responsibility for this and for them in writing to confirm the structural floor as satisfactoty for that product before laying and preferably before you commit to buying the product. Also aclimatising the wood for sufficient period in your property is crucial, especially in what is classed as a wet room area such as th kitchen because the relative humidty can get high and the wood will change shape to be in equilibrium with this so don't have them deliver and lay it the same day as it will swell and change shape to be in balance with the relative humidity at your house and if it can only do this once it is laid it will crown and cup and split all over the place.

Get them to bring it into the room to which it will be laid and allow more than sufficient period out of its packaging for it to settle just left in the room stacked to adjust its new environment and get them to sign that they did this for a sufficient period. Most of the expansion and contraction of the wood will be across the width of the board not its length and they need to allow for this to happen with sufficient perimeter and if applicable movement joints.

Make sure the entire contract is between you and the company supplying the product that is to say just pay them and they pay the fitter. If you pay a fitter they nominate direct who may be self employed there is a split liabilty if anything goes wrong and you do not want to be arguing who's fault it was so just have one contract.

British Standard BS8201 is one of the primary documents to refer to with regard to this issue.

Hope this helps, David Aldred independent dampness & timber surveyor

pruney

furndire wrote: »

When we built our house, we put a floating floor in the kitchen, which we foolishly tiled. They cracked. Then we had a patch that sort of sunk in - dug around it and concreted it in - hoping a laminate floor would work - it started to come apart. Earlier this year we bit the bullet and had the whole lot dug out and damp proof membrane and all the rigamarole concreted the lot and laid cushion floor. How I wish we had done it properly the first time round. It would have save us a small fortune.

That sounds like a right nightmare, thanks for telling me of your experience, it's certainly not one I want to repeat! Just waiting for them to turn up now, think we're definitely going to have the whole thing dug out.